| Author | Message | ||
| pam joseph
Valued Member Username: ellaj Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2009 |
I'm interested in what other Wilders think about the question of how hard a reader should have to work to engage with a poem. Is 'accessible' poetry the fast food of the literary world, written purely to appeal to an otherwise uninterested marketplace? Conversely, where do we draw the line between obscure but worthy references/images/metaphor, and simple self-indulgence? (That's a bit of a rhetorical one, unless anyone thinks they have an answer, haha.) It's a question that has come up, directly or indirectly, in a few crits that I've read over the past weeks. It's also one I grappled with in a particular period last year when I discovered that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand or relate to a great deal of contemporary published poetry. Not only did I lose interest in buying the journals, I lost confidence in my own ability to write anything of value at all. It seems to me that many of the poems I read last year in literary journals were designed to appeal to other poets. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, and such work is often very clever and carefully crafted, but with that target audience its not surprising that poetry is not an attractive option for publishers in the commercial marketplace. Is it even possible that some poetry is written with such a desire to be inscrutable that it is almost consciously intended to leave a reader feeling inadequate (not Wild poetry, of course!) I guess it comes down to a matter of philosophy. What do you think? | ||
| Mark Kempf
Advanced Member Username: eveningdrift Post Number: 1509 Registered: 01-2009 |
I'll start off with the simplistic views first and hope you get better ideas...Pam, since I've only been writing at all seriously for the past year, I'm very close to the same thoughts. I heard a podcast with playwright david Hare and he mentioned plays are by design an art form for a very small audience, poetry even more so. but surely not just for other poets, yet as art, and as an art that communicates, there is this tension for me. a poem that doesn't connect fails IMO, so there needs to be a truth, emotionally or if only mentally, to where the extension of that has an emotional redress. but who reads poetry other than other poets? I wonder. so I think of poets that speak to me emotionally and within an art-form, the ones who have pulled off the trick, that caught my blind eye so to speak. and it is pretty varied- I bet it is for you too, and isn't that encouraging? a beautiful turn of phrase like Yeats, the accessible curiousity of ee cummings, the grand sprirituality of Blake, the simplicity of WCW, or lyricists like Rodney Crowell that don't let us go easily - maybe that is where we can be both and all .. to be blunt, being of just reasonable intelligence and exposure, limited but appreciation to the arts, I think I'm a decent benchmark for what is reasonable for appreciation broadly. the more opaque the references, especially if at the expense of phrasing and emotion, the less likely any but a fellow poet will care or understand a piece. I'm not sure the form or style maters nearly as much as those. an interested reader will find their way, and the odd challenge should add form to function to intent to message. that is true art is it not? ok, my diatribe over, but Pam, I love these conversations. thanks for posting it. one day I hope to write something,one thing, nearly as good as this, that I seems fully accessible yet complex, stylish yet with effect,emotional with intelligent backing, that someone reads ten times and feels closer to each read. e.e. cummings: put off your faces,Death:for day is over (and such a day as must remember he who watched unhands describe what mimicry, with angry seasalt and indignant clover marrying to themselves Life’s animals) but not darkness shall quite outmarch forever —and i perceive,within transparent walls how several smoothly gesturing stars are clever to persuade even silence:therefore wonder opens a gate;the prisoner dawn embraces hugely some few most rare perfectly dear (and worlds whirl beyond worlds:immortal yonder collidingly absorbs eternal near) day being come,Love,put on your faces (Message edited by Eveningdrift on March 01, 2010) Keeping silence when there is nothing left for you to keep - Susan L Helwig - | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11903 Registered: 07-2002 |
Pam--I'm probably not the best person to ask, as some of my favorite poets are the most 'plainspoken' of writers. Billy Collins, Jane Kenyon, Ted Kooser, and Mary Oliver, for example. In no way are these writers simplistic, nor do they lack resonance; they write about ordinary things in a heightened way. I am willing to work when I encounter art, but I need some point of contact, so I have a basis to do that work. What I can't stand is poetry that is deliberately obscure or clever for the sake of cleverness. I know that's not exactly an answer to your question, but it's *my* answer. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog Poetry Chapbook: "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| M
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 36386 Registered: 11-1998 |
This has been an ongoing debate for years. In my opinion, I suppose it boils down to people expecting "poetry" to be one "category," and for all the examples of "poetry" to be similar. In other words, all poetry should be accessible, or all poetry should be inaccessible. Imagine if we applied those same principles to novels or short stories or any category of writing. If we don't expect everyone to approve of or enjoy every category of novel (and there are thousands of types of novels), then why do we expect this of poetry? For instance, I don't particularly like westerns, so I don't read them. But I would never say that westerns shouldn't be written or shouldn't be read. I also like chick lit. But I don't expect every person who reads to feel the same, and to read and enjoy the chick lit novels that I do. Just as there are different types of novels, fiction, and non-fiction, there are many different types of poetry. In my opinion, there is room in the world for all types. I, like you Pam, have become frustrated with some types of poetry. Some journals publish poetry that is unsatisfying to me. It seems either incomprehensible or perhaps too academic. You know what I do? I don't read those journals (in fact, I have gone so far as to fling them across the room *LOL*). I buy other journals that have poetry in them that I can relate to. I buy poetry collections, books, and chapbooks by authors I admire and can relate to. As for the rest? I simply leave them for others who like that type, just as I leave westerns and sci fi on the shelves for those who are in love with those categories of fiction. But I don't feel or assume they shouldn't exist just because they don't appeal to me. "Poetry" is not one "thing." I believe there's room in the world for all types of "poetry." Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean others don't or shouldn't. The poetry shelves at Powells are filled to the brim with poetry of every type. It's up to me, as a reader, to find what I like and what is satisfying to me. And to write the same. There are many publishers out there. There are many venues, voices, and styles. My type of poetry would most likely not appeal to the editors of Poetry or The Paris Review. So I don't submit work to them. You have to find where you fit in this world of writing and poetry. Just as you have to find where you fit in the world in general. Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 7364 Registered: 05-2006 |
Poetry should be like an IQ test. And the primary purpose of writing it should not be as a cultural artform, but rather as a way of making plain how stunningly smart you are, and what banana slugs readers are. Never, never, never pen something that can be understood, even by a sophisticated reader, on the first pass. Choose word combinations that make oil and water look like identical twins. Include scads of esoteric allusions that only literature PhD's and MFA's from the better schools, currently residing in Vermont, New Hampshire or Iowa will be able to grasp. Never use a complete, grammatically correct sentence. Include vast numbers of obscure foreign-language words and phrases. Pre-screen these, so that a Google-search will be of little help. Try to make John Ashbery look like Billy Collins as far as accessibility. Use lots of weird line breaks and tortured lineation. Make sure there is ZERO meter and rhythm. Lines should stumble along like war veterans with neither prostheses nor canes. * * * * * As a sideline, offer an online workshop for selected students. Make it VERY expensive. Require students to submit a letter of intent, ten references from tenured professors, and a folio of 100 of their best poems. Reject everyone except for students living in Vermont, New Hampshire and Iowa. * * * * * Longworth * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on March 01, 2010) I may not be here tomorrow . . . so this is for today. | ||
| RGCat
Advanced Member Username: rcat Post Number: 1699 Registered: 03-2008 |
At one time (many thousands of years ago in a far away nebula) people wrote (in whatever format style and alien tongue they desired) because they could – and that was sufficient raison d'etre. More to the prototypical point -- there was no profit motive and/or ego massage involved in such activities. Writing was simply to express the infinite possibilities of communicating finite temporality in an abbreviated capsule. In fact, according to recent cosmological “echoes” of encapsulated materiality, all such activities were universally referred to as “capsules” back than. Furthermore, with such insight on our theoretical table, we can understand such classics as the proverbial “take two of these…” Obviously, in its “primordial form,” this statement refers to the literary analog of (1) aspirin vs. (2) ibuprofen vs. (3) acetaminophen; the original trine paradox of literary discourse. This trine creates phase smear which some decode as inaccessibility and/or the foggy dew on ones reading glasses. Fret not because Dow Chemical has newly formulated microfiber towelettes for such applications (please consult your family physician before wiping). That’s it! That’s it! Oops, maybe not. | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Senior Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 3201 Registered: 01-2006 |
It's good to ask why. It's better to not know. A hole is for filling. Or not filling. Now go. ad PS. I am he whose brains are scattered aimlessly. (Message edited by BEACHDREAMER on March 01, 2010) Out of the quarrel with others, we make rhetoric; out of the quarrel with ourselves poetry.--Yeats | ||
| RGCat
Advanced Member Username: rcat Post Number: 1700 Registered: 03-2008 |
It's like: in a far away land there’s a man made of sand shaped by the wind of time and whims beyond his control of course this scatter brained man of sand ultimately blows away where he remains uncertain to this day That’s it! That’s it! Oops, maybe not. | ||
| sue kay
Moderator Username: suekay Post Number: 1722 Registered: 11-2005 |
I do love these kinds of discussions. I have a favourite little book called "The Painted Word" by Tom Wolfe. This passage particularly: So it was that in April of 1970 an artist named Lawrence Weiner typed up a work of art that appeared in Arts Magazine--as a work of art--with no visual experience before or after whatsoever, and to wit: 1. The artist may construct the piece. 2. The piece may be fabricated. 3. The piece need not be built. Each being equal and consistent with the intent of the artist and the decision as to condition rests with The reciever on occasion of receivership. Which means there is no need for actual art just the idea of art. That is certainly the extreme to which any art can go. The point is, poetry says something important and it must actually say it or it might as well just shut up. Which means a critic will weigh in that the silence of this piece is so profound it needs nothing further.....LOL My personal view is that language is its own metaphor, and decoding communication is so satisisfying. I confess I tend to like it all... regards Sue} | ||
| Derek Richards
Advanced Member Username: drichards Post Number: 1911 Registered: 11-2008 |
in many of bio's i post that I dislike poetry written solely to make someone feel stupid then i go and write many poems that make me feel stupid, you know? basically if i can't understand it, I either a) just decide i don't like it and move on b) secretly admit I'm not smart enough to get it and then i move on c) read a mystery novel instead i prefer poetry that hits me in the guts not in the brains so much, my brain often hurts as it is....D. | ||
| J.B.
Advanced Member Username: poetessx Post Number: 1088 Registered: 06-2008 |
My preference is when I read something that can be appreciated on many levels. Something that can be taken at face value and make sense and sound nice, but that allows for interpretation and deeper meanings should one choose. Sometimes I enjoy unraveling a poem and others I don't want to think too hard. I know I just said this recently in another post -- poetry is sometimes like abstract art -- you can appreciate its beauty without truly understanding what you are looking at. Color, composition and other elements can be enjoyed for their own merits. Poems can be appreciated for their sound, interesting imagery, form, etc. without completely understanding the content. Of course, the best is still when it all comes together. Just my opinion. J.B. "...anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you." -- David White, "Sweet Darkness" | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 4005 Registered: 04-2007 |
I don't understand every poem that i like. Sometimes a poem will embrace me or fill me up with a taste I'm not familiar with. I don't need a linear understanding, sometimes a line or image will transform me, sometimes the sounds will tickle me. Sometimes it feels like the poem is written in another language, but I have communicated with people who didn't speak my language and I didn't speak their language, but the look in the eye, the smile, the tear, we understood. Years ago, my Abuelita had a wonderful conversation with another elderly woman. The problem was they were both hard of hearing, and while Abuelita spoke about the Florida heat, Aunt Helen agreed that the oranges were juicy. They spent the afternoon laughing and reminiscing . Later , when I was alone with my grandma, I told her that I overheard her conversation with Aunt Helen, and they were talking about different things at the same time. She told me it didn't matter, they were loving one another | ||
| Borska
Member Username: borska Post Number: 88 Registered: 02-2010 |
Pam, I have asked myself all of what you said, believe me. And through the years, lost confidence in my writing, why I do it, if it stinks, if it shines, all of that. I have at times felt as if a poet has to "cash in" and write for the editor, or the other poets and I won't do that. Don't want to, anyway. To write to please the masses would, in my mind, be the ultimate form of cruelty and why bother? I understand how frustrating it is for many poets, especially the serious ones, to stay with it. I have a dear friend who is highly talented and who right now has simply, well, stopped out of lack of interest from both the public, her family and her own inner voice. I myself, take long periods when I just say, you know, why do this? Then, I come back full force because I love writing. You can get 2 or more editors in a room and they will read a piece differently. I hate to repeat an old trite cliche but "to thine own self be true" has to for me, be the cornerstone of my writing. This doesn't mean I won't strive to learn, to improve and to make it as new as possible. Who wants to be bored to tears? But I don't believe that any poet should allow themselves to be part of an assembly line of contemporary poetry that all sounds the same. In critique, even, I'm very careful not to sound as if I'm adhering to a rule, or preach. But let's face it, some things are right and wrong, like grammar for instance and it pisses some poets off when you challenge them. I'm glad you asked this question, raised it I mean. It's the world we live in. A friend said to me, why do you write? You aren't paid, few read it and it's often hard work. The only answer is, because it makes me happy. (Message edited by borska on March 01, 2010) | ||
| pam joseph
Valued Member Username: ellaj Post Number: 127 Registered: 03-2009 |
Thanks so much everyone for your wise words and ideas, and for taking the time to post them. Picture me sitting at my laptop, making little jumps of glee as I read through the thread, nodding and grinning and feeling very glad I asked the question. (Banana slugs, Fred? Wow, you had me worried for a millisecond there!) Too many insightful comments for me to respond to each one, but every post had gems in there that I will take away and mull over. Happily, I'm no longer suffering from my feelings of discouragement last year - not that my poetry is any better, I'm just comfortable now to sit with my own voice, listening openly to all feedback but using only that which 'feels right'. Constructive crits on Wild have played a big part in that - thanks! | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 8861 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Pam, Mark, M, Lisa, et al. There are definite schools and styles of poetry. As do Lisa and M, I tend to prefer simple and direct poetry that calls on the reader's emotions rather than esoteric, cerebral poetry with out-of-the way references or off-the-wall images. Both types of poetry can be found here at Wild as well as elsewhere in print and on-line magazines and workshops. The below conversation that was begun with a couple of parody poems by my fellow veteran Baltimore poet Dave Eberhardt and the conversation it provoked at the Poetry in Baltimore site might be pertinent to paste here. Enjoy. Chris ****************** 2 parody poems by Dave Eberhardt Poem for Garrison K- Writers Almanac to b read w utmost and exceeding sincerity) The bananna nut bread In the shape of a banjo? From the Stone Mill in Osage? Came yesterday. Don't bother me With real important issues, Just published poets. Grannie died today In Kansas. We found her in the snow- Play a hymn On the py an oe. Poem in style of New Yorker, Poetry Mag, NY Review of Books not in the style of Snyder or Ginsberg- bit of Merwin Rhyme "corgi, suv, Ashbery, ephiphany"; Mix in a little upper west side vaporously; Be almost understandable but not quite.... You've got yrself a New Yorker poem alright! i couldn'tt resist going on- w this ex: Last night doorman parked the SUV On 72nd st-a carinthian leather epiphany- The corgi waved queen like, vaporously; Its little paw brushed her forehead listlessly As sad as certain afternoons, Near Zabar's (the upper west side). like Ashbery tunes; She lent her queenly estate to us As if a brownstone had arrived. Why would my mother need analysis? In the lobby abstract expressionists come and go Speaking about design in Mark Rothko. Comment by Chris George: Well satirized, poet. There's a distinct pompousness to some of these poets. I think there's reality at the heart of Merwin. In Ashberry, in his heart (if he has one) there's just sterile air. The same deadness of heart I feel in Barth and Barthelme father and son and all that ilk For me, such writers are tricking the public writing stuff with no real pulse, mock literature. Reply by Dave Eberhardt: yeh- Merwin was a cheep shot- I liked "The Drunk in the Furnace"- long ago- but he's gotten so vaporous- no juicy words- no shock value- as in Emily D- bring back David Franks [late Baltimore poet] - poems entitle "Poontang" how goes the classics- the new yorker poems- they will publish Bly or Gilbert (now that he's sick)- but everything seems to smothered, so sly/wry secretive- let me think up a line- what is the word- it's not juvenile but ...coy? um, facetious? arch- that's it- arch! now, Billy Collins is arch- but he's funny and witty and that saves him Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.thedesertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Jim Corner
Senior Member Username: jdc Post Number: 5802 Registered: 09-2006 |
I must be a step down. Most of my poems, they come from every direction of topic, get favorable comments often with a number of readers, some minor suggestions, only a few who say "burn the sucker," most of that language was before 2001. The members at my site of nine years seem to feel I'm improving, even at times nominate me for IBPC, I have a couple of Honorable Mentions over the years. As a retired Clergy, I feel I need to write for poets and the masses. I write often for the progressive church I have attended for 10 years. Even they at times are slightly shocked, but use some of work in worship, in our Sojourner, our weekly news letter. I continue to find excitement as I write so I intend to continue from age 76 to write a steady roll of poetry for Sophia's sake, for progressive issues regarding children, and a dozen other portions of humanity. I work at loving every one that Jesus loved and more, since he hasn't met most of the folk I've met. My best, Jim Emboss The Snowflake Publisher of www.DesertMoonReview.com | ||
| Eric Lester
Valued Member Username: eflester Post Number: 199 Registered: 07-2008 |
As has been observed, it is a wide world with room for all types of poetry, writing, and other forms of art. Audiences vary. It is inexpressibly valuable to me to have the feedback of this forum, because for me, there is no point in writing poetry unless it will catch someone's "blind eye" (thank you Mark Kempf). Once again, Wild has provided me with a hell of a lot to think on. http://www.eflester.com | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Guess I'd start with Dana Gioia's famous essay on the state of poetry, Pam. I agree with every word in it. I see three schools of poetry kicking today, but I can't quite think of names for them. The first is the vast majority of poetry written today, about tried-and-true themes, using techniques that are tried-and-true too, like extended metaphors, and that are resistant to any change, insistent on proper syntax, etc etc -- a 19th century style. The second is the poetry of the Academy -- creative writing teachers writing pretty words with little emotional resonance or meaning aimed at other creative writing teachers and eventual tenure, who are still tangled up in Eliot and Pound and Derrida and Barthes and never even noticed the Beats, Dadaists, or Surrealists. Finally, there are the non-academic poets trying to advance the art in the 21st century. The only group that is published in literary journals (read: journals of the Academy) is the second group. The two other groups are self-published or published in ephemeral publications. That second group can make a living at poetry. As Fred says, put on seminars. Do writing workshops. Write books about the poems of other academics. Get tenure. That's my current impression. I like legitimately difficult poetry, intelligent poetry, innovative poetry. I think poetry should be beautifully written, break new ground, be absorbing conceptually and move the reader emotionally. Take care, popova (Message edited by popova on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1198 Registered: 10-2002 |
Surely, regardless of style, school, etc, the poem is intended to be a form of communication with its reader. If the poem fails with communicate, it simply fails. If it isn't meant to communicate to a reader, why is it in circulation of any kind at all? Cheers, Frank | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Frank and all, Yes, but who are the readers? I have a hard time with academic poetry, for instance. I would say that communication to me, the non-academic, is not considered essential by academic specialists. What is essential for the academic is to demonstrate the right creds, i.e. an MFA, PhD in English or Lit, and/or a stint at the Iowa Workshop, and to show in the poetry that all the right precedents are referenced, as illustrated by the obscure style, flat affect, and adherence to the institutional fads of that year. The purpose is not to communicate to a general audience by any means. I wouldn't say a poem has to communicate to the biggest possible group of readers -- but to tie up the whole machinery of publication (in the U.S. at least) for the tiny group of academic specialists is to stifle everybody else. popova (Message edited by popova on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1199 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Popova, Fair enough in your comments, which I largely agree with, I think. My view, though, is that if not to communicate something - some idea, thought, story, style or whatever, it could as easily stay in the recesses of the scrap book, mind, private diary etc. The fact of putting it into some part of the public domain means there is a desire to communicate what has been written to some other person/s. Therefore, it needs to be accessible to at least some segment of the great wide potential readership. I have come to (firstly) despair of much of what I read because it fails to be accessible (IMO) and (secondly) to not waste time I consider precious on what I fear will prove a frustrating and pointless exercise. Very cynical, I know. BTW, the readers are anyone who encounters the piece - whether intentionally or not and who has to has to decipher whatever it is they have found. It's everyone, potentially - though one piece obviously doesn't have to be so universally appealling that all readers will approve of it. Oops, I've started babbling, and I don't really know what I'm talking about, in any case. Cheers, Frank | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Frank, I don't think your point of view is cynical. What does inaccessible, mean, though? There is such a thing as abstract poetry, wouldn't you say? Can it communicate a mood with a series of words that circle around something rather than sitting in well-composed sentences, for instance? I don't mind if all that gets communicated to me is a mood, as long as it's an interesting mood, and strong. Do you feel a poem must have a concept that gets played through? I like some of the dadaists like Kurt Schwitters. He got interested in sound and has long poems which are series of nonsense words which develop as sounds. It's fun and funny to read. To me it communicates joy like bird-talk. What do you think? popova | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1200 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi again Popova. I'm no authority, just a bit of a crank. The deliberately obscure and overly sophisticated are what gall me most, and I see a fair bit of that around. I keep going back to the question of why modern poetry isn't as central in general life as I believe it once was. The answer I come up with is that most people can't meaningfully read what is presented to them. Cheers, Frank | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Frank, I'm no authority either, just opinionated, haha! Well, here's what a real authority says is going on: http://www.danagioia.net/essays/ecpm.htm Take care, popova (Message edited by popova on March 02, 2010) | ||
| Melanie G. Firth
Advanced Member Username: zefuyn Post Number: 2037 Registered: 12-2006 |
Has anyone got an example of 'academic poetry'. Be interested in seeing what is considered academic. Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. h.l. mencken | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Melanie, This is Jackson MacLow. He won every prize in the book and taught everyplace. http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15567 Take care, popo | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1201 Registered: 10-2002 |
Fine essay popova. Certainly fleshes out some of my concerns and gripes - thanks for it. I would suggest that here in Australia, the 'fall' has been even greater than in the US, because here (once upon a time) the poets did in fact communicate and have a relationship with a general public audience, Iconic status with the everyday person. Melanie, I don't know academic poetry particularly, but in my state over here our major weekend newspaper publishes one poem each week into a hundred and fifty thousand households. The poem published is (to my mind) rarely of a kind that has any possibility of engaging with the broad readership of the paper. That's the kind of thing that gets me goind. Cheers, Frank | ||
| Melanie G. Firth
Advanced Member Username: zefuyn Post Number: 2038 Registered: 12-2006 |
popo, thanks for providing that link. If MacLow's poem is a representation of academic poetry, can't say I'm much a fan. I do enjoy what you might call 'language' poetry, the kind that is engaging but does not necessarily have to be relatable. I don't find I need to understand a poem in order to enjoy it. Quite often I admire a poem that is a complete mystery to me overall, but that raised some fascinating word play or imagery. And I wonder truly if many poets intentionally go about being abstract to make others feel inferior. That just might be their way to communicate, albeit a one-way conversation. I just don't get riled up about it. In the end, 'take it or leave it' seems the best way. Melanie Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. h.l. mencken | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 27 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Melanie, nice to meet you, I guess that was a rather extreme example. It seems to me that the style includes a remoteness, a remorselessness, a clinical approach, to poetry. It's scientific and calculated. I don't know, I just don't feel warm blood in this fashion of poem. There's a timidity here too. Paper and books are about to go, so we who still write in this ancient medium should go out with a splash and write great stuff. Why play it safe now? We haven't gone this long without a great poet in a long time. We had Eliot and Pound and Frost and Whitman, but all those great poets are long gone. I think a great poet will command a big audience, and cause poetry to be re-discovered. Anyway, sorry, got a little carried away, popova | ||
| Melanie G. Firth
Advanced Member Username: zefuyn Post Number: 2039 Registered: 12-2006 |
Hi Popova, no I liked your 'carried away', appreciate your passion. (: Melanie Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. h.l. mencken | ||
| Nancy Lazar
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 6442 Registered: 10-2005 |
popova- Terrific article by Dana Gioia, and though written almost 20 years ago, I think it still holds true. One of the major points is that published poetry has become a career track for academia, and therefor many journals have lost the critical eye for excellence, becoming a mutual back scratching club. Perhaps in the last 20 years the web has changed the environment just a little, providing an outlet for unaccredited, unlettered writers. But the community of readers hasn't grown, and the cultural mainstream is still avoiding poetry like the plague, and that is partly the fault of poets today. I agree with all the suggestions in the end of the article about how to promote poetry. I'm going to keep those handy and try to be a better representative for my chosen medium going forward. - Laz | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi there, Nancy, Yes, the article 20 years old, but I don't think anything has changed. Language poetry is now the establishment style. It seemed to be an avant-garde, an experimental movement, back then, but never was, because it was intitiated and promulgated by the universities from day one. but you're right, the Net is a marvellous opportunity. It really is an alternative way to disseminate non-academic poetry as well as academic poetry. There are far fewer gate-keepers. Anything can happen, and I hope it does! popova | ||
| Mark Kempf
Advanced Member Username: eveningdrift Post Number: 1515 Registered: 01-2009 |
I like popova's view that interesting poetry in well, interesting. Melanie's view that getting involvement of the reader, even if only partially understood, engaging. why so long without acknowledged greatness popova? is it that no one's writing can survive the bright glare of now, whne every piece would need to be worthy of adulation, not just the odd great one nestled in fluff? or is it that so many have exposure, no one sticks out? I wonder, so many like Kooser, is he it and the style so understated as to be disregardable broadly? I like your idea popova that a great heralded writer will recreate the interest in the art-form. Seems likely they'd have to be seen starting a new movement then wouldn't they? Keeping silence when there is nothing left for you to keep - Susan L Helwig - | ||
| Eric Lester
Valued Member Username: eflester Post Number: 200 Registered: 07-2008 |
Jackson Mac Low is (for me) a good example of the type of poetry (or any other art form) in which I have no interest, other than a kind of awe at seeing something so incredibly strange and (to me) unintelligible, and contemplating the idea that somebody must have been taken with it, or it wouldn't still be around. Or does the emperor have no clothes, as many would say? I don't know, I have to go away with the vague idea that I'm just a little bit too dim to comprehend this work. I am not among the members of the audience for whom this work was intended. Still, I'm oddly fascinated. Reading a little more about Low I discovered that he worked with John Cage, a composer famous for his composition 4'33" during which no music is played, but "The content of the composition is meant to be perceived as the sounds of the environment that the listeners hear while it is performed"(from Wikipedia). Low was involved with (among other things) poetry as performance, an idea that is interesting to me, because we live in a time when entertainment is pervasive. People have incredible equipment in their homes for reproducing sound and video. Hollywood continues to up the ante of special effects necessary to be in the popular film game. Children riding in the back seats of SUVs are entertained by DVD players (sometimes I see TWO little screens lit up back there when I drive past one of these things in the night -- I guess little Johnnie doesn't want to watch what his sister likes?). Our cellular telephones have games, video players, book reading software, and web browsers. But I don't mean this as a litany of despair -- it's simply a way of inferring just who that "audience" might be. Now, I'm no performer. I have never read anyone's poetry in public, much less my own. I've played a little music here and there but being in front of strangers makes me seize up with stage fright. One of the things that attracts me to an activity like writing poetry is that I can do it in solitude, a state that I enjoy. But, having said all that, perhaps the future of poetry may lie in presentation -- it may have to make noise, blink, glitter, get in the way. There are dozens of beeping blinking attention-grabbing widgets everywhere. My web browser has 8 tabs open right now and that's just on this computer. I have a phone that tells me when email comes in, watches the stock market, and holds a downloaded copy of a book I'm re-reading when I have unexpected down time. And I'm from the 1950s -- imagine the increase in intensity for people born twenty-five years ago, or fifteen. It may only be from getting "in their face" that a modern poet will reach a significant percentage of the public. One of my poet friends lived in an apartment house in the city. He used to post poems on his door where his neighbors would see them. Several years ago I encountered a walking trail where someone had written a poem on the pavement, upside down from the way it would appear on paper, so you'd encounter line after line as you walked along. In the room where I work we have three white boards. I used to post one of my poems on them once in a while, although I stopped doing it a few months ago. I got some strange reactions from people at work, and began to think it was not conducive to my continued employment to do this. I keep some of my poetry on the web, but this isn't terribly effective unless I can somehow direct readers to it. I have toyed with the idea of putting links on Twitter, but haven't done it yet. In any event, this has been a very interesting discussion. Thank you to all who contributed. http://www.eflester.com | ||
| Mark Kempf
Advanced Member Username: eveningdrift Post Number: 1516 Registered: 01-2009 |
you've probably hit on it Eric - slam poetry, performance with music poetry - whatever becomes the new way of doing folk house poetry that involves more than the other 9 people and their significant others to a bar on an off-night. I work in a fairly tough city with a new wave of art influence in one crummy neighbourhood. there is poetry on telephone boxes (legal, all painted nice), on an empty boarded wall etc... in NYC there is some of the same..maybe there is hope yet. I might be 70 when it happens, I can jam like a koolkat to some ancient skabeat by G Love or Sublime, recount the days when WPF was king! oh yeah, punk, I was there - I was there when those dudes was just figuring it all out, before they were on the cover of TIME Keeping silence when there is nothing left for you to keep - Susan L Helwig - | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 7368 Registered: 05-2006 |
What is important to remember is that there are many kinds of poetry -- formal poetry, free verse, performance poetry, slam, language poetry, etc. -- and all have their place in the greater realm of POETRY. What galls me is when one genre of poetry claims to be the ONLY poetry, and enforces that hegemony through majority control of the avenues of publication and academic instruction. Longworth ********** I may not be here tomorrow . . . so this is for today. | ||
| pam joseph
Valued Member Username: ellaj Post Number: 128 Registered: 03-2009 |
Fred, I agree with the point that you and several others have made about the many different forms having their place as part of the greater realm, and all being valid for their particular audiences. It's been good to read the various preferences from Wilders and the willingness to respect and accommodate the full range of styles and forms. My concern is not so much about what constitutes 'good' poetry, or even 'poetry' - I can live quite happily knowing that a lot of published poetry is outside my reach but still of value to others. Your second point sums it up for me - the diversity of poetry I find in unpublished work doesn't seem to be reflected to the same extent in the range of published material, and I think that has an effect on how members of the wider public understand poetry and its relevance to them. Frank's example of the newspaper's choice of poetry for their readership was a terrific illustration; if the general public only experiences poetry that is inaccessible to that particular market, they are likely to become alienated from poetry as a genre. Poetry 100 or 200 years ago in Australia was part of mainstream culture - it told stories and captured experiences and feelings in a way that was owned by the whole community, illiterate and educated alike. Poetry was recited, sung ... known. I don't mean that we should all keep writing bush ballads, but Derek's Weekly Challenge winner this week, 'Full Of It', is a perfect example of the sort of wonderful poetry that I think a lot of people from all backgrounds would relate to, and yet I don't see poems like that being put in front of mainstream audiences. Not around my neck of the woods, anyway. If they were, I think fewer of my friends and relatives would tell me that they 'don't really like poetry'. They buy novels and non-fiction, they watch movies, they go to musical theatre (not so much to plays, where some of the same issues apply I think) but somehow they can't see how poetry is relevant to them any more. Poetry has become a niche interest. That's what saddens me, I guess. There is excellent and accessible poetry around, but most people won't bother looking for it because they don't expect it will interest them (and, at least in Australia, it's probably not something you find unless you search). To end on a slightly more optimistic note, though - where I live there was a project to put haiku poetry on to trains. Poster-size haiku verses on all sorts of contemporary themes were placed on the walls of the train carriages, to be contemplated by an admittedly rather captive audience. There is hope! Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread, can't tell you how absorbing I have found the discussion! | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1202 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey pam - whereabouts in Oz? My wife had one of her poems included in the moving poetry thing last year - excellent program! Cheers, Frank | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Wilders, Well, here's brand-new read-it-and-weep article about the lack of diversity and the state of siege: http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Math-of-Poetry/64249/ My three rays of hope are 1) Print-on-demand publishing, which has brought the price down to just about everybody's level, 2) my faith that a genius must arrive soon and be recognized, and 3) my faith that the attention span in the west having narrowed down to about 5 minutes, nobody will be able to finish a novel and they'll all be looking for one-page satisfactions. Thanks for the thread, Pam, popova | ||
| Judi Brannan Armbruster
Advanced Member Username: judia Post Number: 2198 Registered: 10-2009 |
I think one page satisfactions sounds like a great poem topic! I find much of the poetry in bio hard to read and understand, I read for pleasure first, then for information. Interesting discussion, thanks for that. Judi Charles Green Shaw: "Real happiness consists in not what we actually accomplish, but what we think we accomplish." | ||
| Eric Lester
Valued Member Username: eflester Post Number: 203 Registered: 07-2008 |
Thanks for the link to the Chronicle article, it was very interesting. Predicting the future is not one of my skills, but reading that article I found myself thinking about the music and recording business and how rapidly that is changing. It is not hard to write 25 or 30 lines on a sheet of paper and call it a poem, nor is it hard to learn 3 chords on the guitar and play "Oh, Susanna." I leave myself wide open in saying this because after all my own literary credentials are nonexistent, but the final court of appeal will be the reading public. It is disturbing to think that somewhere a modern Tennyson or Blake is posting poems to a blog read by 3 or 4 friends, that his work may be lost to posterity through no lack of talent or execution, but simply because there is far too much being written. Ultimately I can't do anything about this. It's a good news / bad news thing. Bad news: there are about a billion people writing poetry with as much chance as I have of being recognized for it. Good news: I can't reasonably expect to please anyone but myself and (maybe) a very small audience, so I may as well do my very best for its own sake. Writing poetry improves my experience of life. I am more observant, appreciative, and thoughtful because of it. I may have to be satisfied with this as my reward. http://www.eflester.com | ||
| popova
New member Username: popova Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2010 |
Hi, Eric, If you want to be read more widely, print-on-demand is a great technology. Amazon will carry your book and you have a distributor. I'm doing that, editing a poetry anthology with seven poets, each of whom has 40 pages worth of poems, and it's as cheap as putting out a music CD of your band these days. I agree that submitting to literary journals without academic cred simply won't be successful. So it's necessary to leapfrog, and books get a lot more attention than a single poem in a journal anyway. I don't mean chapbooks, BTW, I don't think those have any chance either, I mean over 200 pages... Take care, popova | ||
| Mark Kempf
Advanced Member Username: eveningdrift Post Number: 1533 Registered: 01-2009 |
I'm going to post this while i remember, but don't want to get the thread away from what Pam just posted. the best way to get actual attention to quality poetry...too important not to discuss amongst this talented crowd. so if you get a chance later, very entertaining and informative from the Poetry Journal gang - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/audioitem.html?id=1928 cool podcast on this topic, the section 'Are Poets Lazy Bastards" with carmine starnino is near the end. Keeping silence when there is nothing left for you to keep - Susan L Helwig - | ||
| pam joseph
Valued Member Username: ellaj Post Number: 129 Registered: 03-2009 |
Hi Frank, I'm in Melbourne. Congratulations to your wife for having her poetry included in this project! There was some great work on display. | ||
| Melanie G. Firth
Advanced Member Username: zefuyn Post Number: 2046 Registered: 12-2006 |
Have to say, it's great to have Aussie's on here, I'm from Perth. Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. h.l. mencken | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1203 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Melanie. Yes, nice to be in Oz company (sort of). Cheers, Frank | ||
| pam joseph
Valued Member Username: ellaj Post Number: 132 Registered: 03-2009 |
Thanks for the link to the Chronicle article, popova. The debate that followed was almost as interesting as the article itself! The theme of regional context seems to be emerging as very relevant to this conversation. I'm fairly new to this field, but it seems to me that as well as commonalities there are some significant differences between the US and Oz in terms of publishing issues, probably at least partly reflecting the size of the population (read: market) as well as culture. Maybe it's not so different from one country to another, but from what I'm told, it's almost impossible to get poetry on to the bookshelves here, even for poets who are well-known. (Last week I went into my local book shop, admittedly not a very good one, and asked where I could find any books of contemporary Australian poetry to send to a relative in Barcelona. They had one annual anthology 'Best of', and a couple of books of bush verse - Banjo Paterson/Henry Lawson. That was it.) We have fewer publishing houses (I think - correct me if I'm on the wrong track, someone) and, importantly, a smaller buying public. We seem to have a lot of access to material published elsewhere, but I'm not sure we have an equally sizeable market outside the domestic Oz one. Another significant difference is the aspect of academic tenure, although I think that is also changing. Historically, my understanding is that our academics have had more stability than their US counterparts, but we seem to be moving increasingly in the direction of the US model. I'd be very interested to hear how these issues play out in the UK, India, China, Philippines etc? Or is the internet simply making these distinctions obsolete? |
