| Author | Message | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11794 Registered: 12-2003 |
What kind of critique helps you write? When I first came to Wild, oh about 6 years ago, there was no Biofeedback for heavy critique. Critique was given in Creative Visualization (CV), and it was constructive, more than just a generic lovely or nicely done. Your work received anything from grammar tips and line break suggestions to a complete in-line. Many actively worked on revising and showed those revisions, which is a great learning tool for everyone. The critique would keep the creative juices flowing and help me revise and inspire me to keep writing. Now it seems that CV has become a place for positive feedback and very little is offered in the way of constructive critique. Most people that post there seem happy with the generic comments and do very little in the way of revision. Lately the lovely and nicely done make me want to hurl. I find they don’t help me revise or workshop a poem at all. Sure positive feedback is nice, but does that help you revise? Give me a lovely, but then don’t be afraid to tell me what works and doesn’t work in the poem. Don’t be afraid to tell me there’s a typo, or something is awkwardly worded, or just doesn’t make sense. So, the kind of critique that helps me is the kind that makes me think hard about my poem--is this the direction I want the poem to go in, how can I improve it, what can I change, and what could I tinker with adding or removing to make it stronger. What can I do to get that kind of critique? Offer that kind of course Be specific in my profile about the kind of critique I want Post in Biofeedback Share my revisions You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| M
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 34501 Registered: 11-1998 |
Whatever you want, honey, that's what you'll get from me. You want it straight-up, without the sugar coating? You got it! Yes, ma'am. Warning: Fasten your seatbelt. It's going to be a bumpy ride.  Much Love, M | ||
| Jennifer VanBuren
Intermediate Member Username: jkvanburen Post Number: 344 Registered: 04-2009 |
I am glad you wrote this, Kathy. I am thinking I might start posting ones I really need to work on in Biofeedback. I do enjoy even the short compliments, though, and I know not everyone has time to leave detailed comments-- I would rather a "great job" or "um, I don't get it" or any such marker that lets me know you were there. Some times I see something I would like to comment on and I hesitate because I do not think the poet is really looking to change anything, just share (which is fine!) I am not good with remembering who is looking for what. Truth be told when I come across a poem with a bunch of glowing comments, I feel strange posting recommendations~ figure well everyone else thought it was perfect... what is my problem  Perhaps instead of on the profile, if poets leave a comment on their actual poem post, in the original thread, what they are looking for on that specific poem, that would be helpful. i.e. Don't Touch This. or:  Just call me angel of the morning.  Help me with these line breaks please! This ending sucks. Help! Tear me a new one. Does the image of the porcupine meatball work?  Light petting and snuggling welcome (Message edited by jkvanburen on June 22, 2009) "To be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happiness." Bertrand Russell | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11177 Registered: 07-2002 |
Kathy--I think that a place like Wild does change over time, as its members change and grow and as new members come it. We've definitely gotten larger over the past few years and with that growth, it means that board moves a lot quicker. Poems don't linger for commentary before they scroll quickly out of sight. It also means that there are a lot of members who really haven't had time to form the deeper, trusting relationships that intense crit requires. I'm not sure I have an answer for you, other than to ask for deeper crit in your post and spend some time in BFB. You will definitely get fewer responses than in CV, but those responses will be more in depth and your poem won't scroll off the board in a day or two. I wish that all the poets who posted here were looking for more in depth critique, but that is not the case and I shouldn't put my wishes on the board as a whole. This is a culture, one that grows and changes with its membership. If a critical mass of members are looking for more in depth commentary, than the board will shift to meet that need. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 3490 Registered: 04-2007 |
I love to receive the hard hitting critique, anything to improve the poem. I just posted a poem in bio after endless revisions in CV. I received good advice in CV but I'm still not happy with the poem. I look forward to all the help offered in bio. I have no confidence in my ability to critique work. Occasionally I'll give suggestions but more often, I don't know what to say. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11178 Registered: 07-2002 |
Brenda--just give your reactions as a reader. That is more valuable to me than any specific suggestion. In fact, I have come to appreciate a careful and thoughtful read more than specific line edits, both in my poetry and in my novels. Most of the time, knowing that something isn't working lets my brain find another path and I'm able to make the needed changes, even without a specific suggestion. I trust you as a reader. Now trust yourself. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1649 Registered: 11-2007 |
even just saying something as simple as "I like this but the last stanza makes me uncomfortable" or "I think you've done a good job as far as you went, but have you considered an extra line or two?" Never be afraid to be generic, sometimes it's even handier than the specific, line by line stuff. It helps not only the writer but the other readers to see what might be a problem for them in it, that they hadnt really focused on. I like solid honest crits, the ones that tear it apart and glue it back, or just take out whole chunks. Sometimes I agree, and sometimes not, but it shows me another way to go. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| S. Thomas Summers
Advanced Member Username: s_thomas_summers Post Number: 1666 Registered: 10-2006 |
If anyone wants my opinion on a poem, more than I offer here - just email them to me. Anytime!! scottsummers1@hotmail.com visit me at http://www.freewebs.com/sthomassummers/ author of "Death settled well" and "Rather, It Should Shine" | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11180 Registered: 07-2002 |
That's a generous offer, Scott. Though I do think that we miss out on an opportunity to learn when the crit process happens off scene. I know I learn a tremendous amount watching the critique process with others' poems. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11795 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you everybody for contributing and making this an interesting discussion!! Jennifer, it will be nice to see you in Bio. I agree, we all enjoy the compliments, but sometimes we want more. Lisa, I think you hit the nail on the head, pardon the cliche, there has been a lot of growth and change here at Wild since I came, and needs shift. I think CV does move too fast to build the trust and allow the time for more in depth crit and revision. Honestly, I'm going to trust the crit more if the critiquer offers something more constructive than a lovely or nice job. Brenda, as you receive more in depth crit you will probably be able to give more. Like Lisa said, just give your reactions to the reader. If something doesn't work for you say so. Judy, I was referring to generic as comments like lovely, nice job, well done, etc., although I see what you mean by line by lines being more specific than general comments like you mentioned. I find general comments or impressions that you get from reading the poem are also quite helpful. Personally, I find the line by line helpful for pointing out grammar and syntax etc., but it doesn't really offer anything but a rewrite of your poem. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11796 Registered: 12-2003 |
Scott, I agree with Lisa. If you want to offer more crit why not try Bio? Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 7688 Registered: 08-2003 |
Great thread Kathy. I always try to give feedback for improvement (if I feel the poem needs it). It ranges from something minor to a full blown crit. I don't care if everybody is standing on their heads saying what a great poem it is I will offer some ideas to those poets whom I know are interested. There are a few poets I comment on who I know do not want that kind of feedback so usually I'll just read and comment on what parts of it I liked. I do sometimes feel like I am spoiling the barrel of apples when there's a lot of backslapping and I come along with improvements but part of what I offer is my ability to give feedback. I wouldn't want to post my poems just to show and tell. Again, if a poem IS in my opinion finished, why offer something just for offering's sake but usually there is something for the poet to consider and accept or reject. When I read a poem on Wild I am already editing it in my mind, so if something jumps out at me, why not say it? I'm really glad that you want critical feedbck Kathy. I was never sure and hesitated to offer anything. I think it's a good idea to post the note in the poem if you are looking for specific feedback. I do often wish we could post in both forums but I also understand the difficuly this presents and since I know I will get a detailed crit from M much of the time and I am usually in a hurry because I'm going to use the poem in a reading or some such, I post here rather than bio. I have a trunk of poems to revise over the long hall and when I get to that point (I plan on spending loads of time in 2010 on revisions because I'm not taking on much of any new events or projects) then I'll have the time and patience to work there. I love the feedback I get from Lisa too so it's all gut! x e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 2135 Registered: 01-2005 |
Hi Kathy, I don't have much to add that hasn't been addressed. I prefer "lite" over "heavy" crit....in that I feel I am a fairly accomplished poet. Nope it hasn't come easy --as I posted earlier this year, I began writing poetry at age 12 and have celebrated this year my 50th year as a "working" poet. This doesn't mean I have the most publications or anything. Just that I've been trying to "perfect" my craft for this long. Harder for me than any poem I've ever written, is giving anyone and I mean anyone a crit. I came to the boards like many: the first time I'd been with other poets in my entire life. Wrote in isolation, etc. etc. I prefer lite because, really,if you read my profile...in the end, after all is said and done, I really mean it when I say I'm most interested in knowing whether: you liked it or not... or,if you didn't...try to tell me why. I don't expect more from a crit but DO appreciate it when other Wilders offer me more indepth crit. I pretty much KNOW what the well-informed, "educated" poet might tell me ...I'm fairly "prescient' (sp?) there. So...I have my own reasons for staying in lite crit no matter how "complex" or not I think my poem is. Also, I STILL really feel like I don't know what the hell I'm talking about when I advise other poets. I try to be honest and yes, lately have taken that NEXT step when I have the, er, "guts" to be frank and say: "hey, this sucks and here's exactly what I'd do." Some react with thankfulness, others..whatever. I do my best and that's all I ask of others. I love this forum. It's a perfect fit for me. And, yes, this is time-consuming. But it's what I love to do most. Anyway, that's about all I have to say on the matter. I wouldn't really "change" anything about the board. Works for me!! ~T | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 6313 Registered: 05-2006 |
Kathy, this is a truly lovely question, and you're absolutely wonderful for asking it. I'm soooooo pleased to be able to read it and reply. * * * * * One negative result of the endless back-patting and simplistic accolades on CV is that if you don't get in on the approbation -- i.e. if you're honest in your critiques, even if you nearly always include a positive comment about the poem along with advice to improve the piece -- people will often "take it personally," and think that you've "got it in for them" -- and so they won't comment on your poems as a form of tit-for-tat, or they will slaughter your poems as a form of retribution. Ugh. Fred YOUR FOOTNOTE ADVERTISEMENT HERE. Call 1-555-555-5555 and ask for Fred. 10% discount if you mention Wild Poetry Forum. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1650 Registered: 11-2007 |
there is also an inherent difficulty with having several people giving in depth crits of the same poem. Like the blind men and the elephant, everyone sees something different. That is when I feel a need to scurry off to a corner and ponder. When I write a poem, I will work on it until Im sick of it, and can see no room for further improvements. What helps me at that point is taking it to a trusted friend (whom I trust not to admire but to crit) and whittle away at it some more. That or plunk it down here and see what happens. Our babies, to us, are perfect. Accepting the fact that they might not be is part of the growing up process as a writer. It's amazing how a 'finished' poem can appear to several other people, isn't it. On occasion it's nice to have a mentor, like Scott, for a one-on-one dialogue. He says this, you say that. You discuss it, not just sit there and read and say thank you. That kind of discussion can sometimes spark ideas of where to go next, if at all. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 7692 Registered: 08-2003 |
Sometimes you offer an extensive critique and the poet says nothing even though they say they want critical feedback. I always wonder, did they read it? Are they pissed off? A simple thank you would go a long way whether or not they choose to use any of the suggestions. e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11181 Registered: 07-2002 |
Judy--one of the hardest balancing acts is to balance one's view of one's own work with outside critiques. At the end of the day, it is vital to trust your own voice and there is nothing worse than writing by committee. I take every comment I receive as a gift and I consider each critique. When I do revise, I may take the poem in a completely different direction than any of the commenters have suggested. It's not at all a negative commentary on the critique, but only a recognition that it is the poet's choice ultimately, in chosing the path of revision. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1651 Registered: 11-2007 |
Lisa, often what other people say is vital. It all goes into that giant hopper, and sloshes around--what comes out is yours. you may not think it had an impact, but in some rube goldberg way, it does. often someone will say 'red' to your 'blue' and you suddenly think, 'purple'. that's it. And it is. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11803 Registered: 12-2003 |
Teresa, the great thing about Wild is that is works how the poet wants it to no matter how accomplished they are. If you want lite crit there is a place to find it, and if you want more there is a place for that too. I wrote in isolation before I found Wild too. I don't know how accomplished I am, but I still crave deeper crit, and I'm always trying new things. I for one, would appreciate your honesty and guts. Fred, I truly appreciate your lovely sense of satire. LOL. I agree with you, endless back-patting and simplistic occolades can give a writer, especially a beginning writer, a false sense of accomplishment. I don't know, as a serious writer, at least as I consider myself, I feel there is always room to improve, something different to try, something new to try to master. Judy, several people giving in depth crits on the same poem can be confusing. Who do you listen to? I think over time a writer/poet develops their own intuition, and takes what works for them, their poem, and uses it. You're right, every reader can see something different in what they read, but that can be a constructive thing too. I can't count how many times I actually revise a poem before I post it. We used to have that kind of dialogue in CV, the back and forth, the discussion, the sparks. With the few things I've posted in Bio, I've noticed that does happen there. E, I think a lot of the time you don't get a thank you for your suggestions it's because CV moves so fast, our attention spans get short, and people don't go back to a poem once they've read it or the critique. They're already moving on to the next poem, there are so many to read. I like the thank you too, and I also like to see when someone posts a revision. I think that gets lost in CV because of the pace and poems too quickly fall down the board. Lisa, I too look at each critique as a gift and consider each one in the revision process. It's important to look at critique as a gift, instead of as a personal attack on you or your work. I want to open my present and find something exciting, not the same old lovely lump of coal. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Meriall Blackwood
New member Username: merblackwood Post Number: 13 Registered: 05-2009 |
Sometimes I'm looking for critique. Sometimes I'm only providing a sample. I have a sample of the fantasy poem I'm writing up on my web page. I've been working on the whole poem for a long time. The posted scene is years old; feedback from people who've read it earlier has generally been positive. I'm no longer likely to rip this particular scene apart: it's already about as good as I can make it. You either like it or you don't. It's up there to let people who might like it know it exists. But there are other scenes that are new, and then I'm relying on first readers to tell me whether they work. In that case, I want to know about anything that throws them out of the story, whether it's bad scansion, awkward wording, an image that doesn't work, missing emotion, or whatever. I'm also going to want serious critique of the storyline as a whole, as well as the scene-by-scene stuff. There are critiquing-cultures in some places where not tearing the work to shreds is considered a sign of having a delivered a bad crit -- cultures where, even if they didn't find anything that threw them out of the work when they were reading, people feel obligated to go back and find something to call a fault, so they can say they've written a sufficiently long, harsh, and profound critique. But then the critique is actively misleading. That's not helpful. If I send a piece around for critique, neither "I only want praise" nor "I want it torn to shreds" describe what I'm looking for. I want readers' honest impressions of it. If I've succeeded beyond all expectations, then maybe I'll only get praise. If it's a botch, then readers will end up describing its numerous or its deep-seated flaws. In either case, learning how well the piece really works is what I'm after. I email my early drafts to first readers, rather than posting them anywhere. Sometimes they work reasonably well, but sometimes they're badly misstructured, and I'd rather they were presentable before the All-Seeing Eye of Google indexes them for the world. Fantasy Poetry | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11806 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mariall, welcome to Wild! You are right, sometimes we are looking for different types of crit for each poem we post. If it's a more polished piece and you just want general comments, CV is the place to post. If it's something you are currently working on and want more in-depth critique then Bio would be the place to post. Sublux fits somewhere in the middle of that, it depends if you want to workshop or if you want heavy crit while revising. Here at Wild we try to provide critique in a positive manner, we don't shred poems unless the poet lets us know that is the kind of crit they are looking for. I understand where you're coming from about the all-seeing-eye. I try to post my poems with as few grammar errors etc as possible, and usually I go through many revisions before I post. Members here at Wild are my first readers. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1652 Registered: 11-2007 |
i cannot imagine not revising a poem to its shoe tops before posting it. It becomes my perception of a finished product vs. someone else's ideas of what's needed to be changed to improve on it. Or not. I use the crit process as a litmus test of how good it is beyond my own perceptions, and how good it can be with a twitch and a tweak. Often in that kind of end stage crit I see that a line doesn't work, or a whole stanza can come out, no matter who loves it. Reading other people's comments is important, even if what I end up with seemingly has no relation to their suggestions. Trust me, it does. Im looking at it through their eyes... Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 7698 Registered: 08-2003 |
Judy says: I use the crit process as a litmus test of how good it is beyond my own perceptions, and how good it can be with a twitch and a tweak. Exactly..... Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 7699 Registered: 08-2003 |
One dilemma I have is that sometimes there is an army of poems just waiting to be given some loving attention. What I mean is...a poet posts something and I am really knocked out either by the entire poem or a stanza or several lines and I feel like the runway makes it difficult to truly appreciate the genius of each one of these. It's sometimes like seeing an exhibit in a gallery filled with many favorite paintings only an inch or so apart from one another. Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11808 Registered: 12-2003 |
E, I know what you mean, so many poems, and so little time it becomes overwhelming and you don't know where to start, so you don't end up commenting at all. At least, that's what happens for me. I used to try to comment on every poem in CV, but now there are just too many to keep up with that. And, when I offer suggestions and get no reply or don't see any active revision, I tend to want to give up commenting on those poet's poems. I feel like I'm not offering them anything that is helping them, or maybe they like their poem the way it is and do not want to revise it. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Ron. Lavalette
Advanced Member Username: dellfarmer Post Number: 1706 Registered: 05-2007 |
I know it probably makes me out to be a crud of a person, but I rarely consider what the poet wants by way of critique. I usually just say what I want to say, usually try hard to explain why I've suggested revision, and always try to keep my focus on the poem, not the poet. I hardly ever consider which forum the poem is in, but when I do, I try to note that I'm aware that I'm giving in-depth critique in CV (or vice-versa). I always assume that the poet has had ample opportunity to have witnessed how I approach critique, and can skip over my post if s/he chooses. I keep my fingers crossed that the poet will appreciate my input, but I rarely weigh whether or not to offer critique based on whether or not the poet is likely to do so. And there are lots of poems I don't respond to at all, for lots of different reasons: some I think are totally irredeemable, some so finely accomplished that nothing need be said, and some I just don't have any reaction to all. I always hope the reader won't read anything into my silence. --Ron. Eggs Over Tokyo | ||
| Ron. Lavalette
Advanced Member Username: dellfarmer Post Number: 1707 Registered: 05-2007 |
...oh. I should add that I've always been very happy with the type and amount of feedback my posted work has received. Thanks. --Ron. Eggs Over Tokyo | ||
| Jane Røken
Senior Member Username: magpie Post Number: 3506 Registered: 03-2007 |
Dear Kathy, I'm afraid I don't have much new to add to this discussion -- I merely want to say that for me, any & all commentary is helpful. From the touch-and-go pat on the cheek, to the most thorough critique -- everything helps me see my poems from different angles. And I try to do the same things for the others. But the time available (few of us have enough, I believe) and the very rapid turnover in CV sometimes make it difficult to perform optimally on both of those flows. Myself, I sincerely cherish suggestions to improve my writing. But since I usually handle my poems very slowly, editing every line a zillion times, I don't always do "any active revision" in the forum; instead, I do my post-post editing in private. And unless it's what I would call a major revision or a complete re-write, I don't re-post these pieces. There are so many other new poems (mine as well as everyone else's) that require attention. I appreciate suggestions so very much. And I do acknowledge them, naturally. I don't always get around to act upon them immediately; but I consider them, save them, try them out, and use them actively ..... in due course. Jane | ||
| S. Thomas Summers
Advanced Member Username: s_thomas_summers Post Number: 1669 Registered: 10-2006 |
I don't have time to offer more than I do - however, if someone takes the time to send me a poem I'lltake the time to crit it. I've several crit pen pals now. Good luck all. visit me at http://www.freewebs.com/sthomassummers/ author of "Death settled well" and "Rather, It Should Shine" | ||
| Abraham de la Torre
Advanced Member Username: ham8113 Post Number: 1256 Registered: 02-2009 |
Like Brenda, I don't have the confidence to critique, would rather keep my trap shut than say anything offensive and generally tell it like it is when the piece dances. I give every effort my best, edit it till the midnight oil burns out, for my own satisfaction and the appreciation that the reader may derive from it. I luck out sometimes and create a quickie (like Vows) which is basically a forum endowment but that's as far as my premature inspiration goes. Every effort is as personal as the critiquing preference of the poet. I can only respect that as perhaps expect the critic would give as much as he gets. I draw the line on talking the poet down because there is always silence as a better choice. My preference is hitting-home honest which I appreciate as much as a pat on the back, both being given to induce growth and production. Thank you, Kathy, for bringing this up. Ham The unjust sinner can no more go to heaven than the justified sinner can go to hell. - A.W. Tozer | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11809 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ron, you are not a crud, and I for one find your critique to be knowledgeable and helpful. I pretty much critique like you, I start out critquing everything the same way, but when I notice people aren't using it or they tell you they don't like it, then I gear my crit to what they seem to want, or I don't crit at all. I'd prefer you tell me if a poem is irredeemable or if you feel its accomplished, that helps me in the revision or not. Jane, time is valuable to all of us, and I realize many of us do not have time to offer more, and I'm not unappreciative of those who take the time to offer anything, even if it is a lovely. I'm just at a point in my writing that I want more from crit than that. Scott, I understand the time crunch, that's why I don't crit or comment on everything in CV any more. I just can't keep up. Sublux has become busier, and work, and life, so something had to give. Crit penpals sounds interesting, and if it works for you then good on ya. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Ann Metlay
Senior Member Username: wordsrworthy Post Number: 6755 Registered: 08-2007 |
I feel that those who post more often get more attention and crits. Since I rarely posr, I seem to get fewer comments. When I have posted in sublux I am very conscientious about critting a number of poems. Several times I have been toiling over a crit and Kathy, you, post this fabulous crit that exceeds anything I have been trying to say, so I give up on that one. I do not like posting in CV because my poems fall so quickly through there that there is only one or two comments before they are gone, and those are usually the "good work" variety. I would love to get more in-depth help. You and Laz have given me some valuable tips when I have put a poem up. I have been concerned that I am not "good enough" for bio, although I lurk there frequently. Basically it is matter time--if I don't have the time to crit others, answer any suggestions I get and actively work on my poem, I just do not post it. I have a backlog of poems for the time when I can devote more time to this. Ann | ||
| Dan Tompsett
Intermediate Member Username: db_tompsett Post Number: 664 Registered: 07-2007 |
I pretty much keep my stuff in BIO because my poems there have recieved a lot of great input and suggestions that have helped me improve them. I don't use every single edit suggestion, of course, and I'm sure those who offer their thoughts and ideas don't expect me to, just as I seriously doubt every idea I put forth in regards to someone's work is taken as gospel. I do know absolute crap when I read it, though, and don't mind telling the author(s) I see it as such, which is another reason I rarely even peek in at CV. I see CV as a fun, sharing forum, which is fine. For that. "People who believe a lot of crap are better off." Charles Bukowski | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11813 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ann, your crit is valuable even if you say, "I was going to say exactly what Kathy said,' because it tells the writer that two people are thinking exactly the same thing about their poem, and that can be valuable in the revision. You are always welcome to post in Sublux. I'm trying to give the poems there more of my time. Maybe some day you'll be brave enough for Bio, you'll go there when that's the kind of crit you want. It's not as scary as you think. Dan, its nice to hear you are happy with the kind of crit you are getting in Bio. Your opinion on CV is interesting, it does seem like that doesn't it? Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Frank
Advanced Member Username: frank_faust Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Kathy, For me, it's some indication of where a piece doesn't work in its story-telling. For the most part, I read to an audience, rather than appear in print and so I tend to write stories in verse and they tend to longer rather than shorter, which seems to trouble some folk, so I get a lot of suggestions to cut back various pieces. I find this less helpful than folk might think as even one of my longer pieces will only take about a minute to read to an audience and filling 40 - 60 minutes with 30 second readings gets tedious very quickly. Some of the folk who read professionally in the same venues stretch a piece from 7 - 10 minutes. Anyway, while I'm grateful for all comments and thoughts re all pieces I post (and get a little down hearted when a piece gets none - even after all these years of penning and posting) crit that pinpoints where a piece falters, rather than simply suggestions to chop are most helpful in my situation. Cheers, Frank | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11814 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ham, I missed your post earlier, it must have come when I was responding to the few above you. The confidence to offer critique comes with time. Just offer the kind that others offer you that you find most helpful, you can even borrow their words. You'll get braver. Frank, I'm glad to know that you write your poems to read out loud over a certain amount of time. I'll keep that in mind when I crit you. I can see how short pieces would get tedious, and something like your fire series would fill the hour better. I've listened to poets read their work on CD and watched DVD's where they read them, and they always read very slow and deliberately, I always wondered why, maybe its partly to fill up the time. I think a lot of us tend to read a poem faster than we would speak it. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Abraham de la Torre
Advanced Member Username: ham8113 Post Number: 1264 Registered: 02-2009 |
Kathy, Thank you for "braver" very much. Ham The unjust sinner can no more go to heaven than the justified sinner can go to hell. - A.W. Tozer | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 6316 Registered: 05-2006 |
Now where I come from, the quality of a critique is entirely gauged by its overt or implicit brutality. Put simply: if you don't draw blood, you're a wimp. Moreover, rather than attacking the poem as a work of art, I prefer to slam the personality of the poet. If the poem is too long . . . then the writer is a boring person. If I disagree with the poem's ideological premises, then the writer is a fascist pig, racist or moron. If the poem leaves little to the reader's imagination, then the author is infantile and subtle as a grenade. If the writer asks me to back off, and says I'm engaging in ad hom, I accuse him or her of being a weakling, and affirm that poets should accept criticism gracefully. Failure to do so is a sign of the writer's boorish personality. Anyway, since you're reading this, I may as well mention that your latest poems are an utter waste of time. One could do better reading the graffiti inside a toilet stall down at the airport. You have the artistry of Stalin and the subtlety of ebola virus. Give it up. Go back to molesting children. Fred YOUR FOOTNOTE ADVERTISEMENT HERE. Call 1-555-555-5555 and ask for Fred. 10% discount if you mention Wild Poetry Forum. | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11820 Registered: 12-2003 |
Fred, now I know that isn't the kind of critque you like or offer, did your evil twin take over your body to write this post? Thanks for injecting some humor. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1272 Registered: 10-2005 |
Having recently had a situation regarding a comment on a poem of mine, I suppose this thread stands out to me. I like pointed critique and generally I don't mind if it's harsh so long as strengths are pointed out... not just so it's nice or polite, but because pointing out strengths is important and can be just as helpful to the poet as damnation to an early grave for ill-conceived tripe. Well. More helpful than that, even. And by that I mean pointing out a line that the reader liked, or mentioning the title if that was good, or the topic, or whatever the case may be. Something more specific than "I like this poem." but not a line-by-line. (I am speaking of CV here.) I did not respond well to the critique I was given. I am still rather annoyed by the mess it caused, and in retrospect I wish I had said nothing beyond "Thanks, I'll keep that in mind." as I really feel less inclined to post my work now. I feel I've been branded as the guy you can't give an honest critique to or he'll get mad. And after having been here for a while and posting many poems... that's upsetting. Maybe some of it's in my head, too. But it's a good lesson on both sides, I think. I could have made a brief post to thank the reviewer. I didn't. The reviewer could have worded things much better. That did not happen, either. When the words are not accompanied with gestures, facial expression, or a clear tone it can be difficult to tell if someone is being kind or cruel. Anyway. I've been off and on here for years, and though I am no angel, I have offered critiques and gladly received them for many poems. Now I don't know what to do. I really don't feel comfortable posting now. Maybe I just need to give it time. There's $.02 and then some. Thanks for reading. Jeff | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5113 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'd like to say to Jeff right off that I don't think he has to worry about how his poems will be received in CV. I followed all that and I think in the main it was handled and ended well. Sometimes we get a little off track in this process. It's understandable; we're all putting ourselves out there in a vulnerable position, whether we are posting a poem or critiquing. -Laz | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 6317 Registered: 05-2006 |
I just came back from critiquing a poem that is . . . well, to be honest, absolutely awful. Several people previously posted comments like, "Ooooo! So nice! Great stuff! Love ya for writing this! I'd kill my first-born child just to have a chance to read another poem like this one." Either people are trying to be "nice" in a manner that encourages the poet to write more abstract, cliche-ridden stuff of essential zero artistic merit . . . or those same people have the critical eye of the Sphinx. Fred YOUR FOOTNOTE ADVERTISEMENT HERE. Call 1-555-555-5555 and ask for Fred. 10% discount if you mention Wild Poetry Forum. | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5114 Registered: 10-2005 |
We have all talked about the speed of CV and I think we all agree it is in part due to the sheer number of people posting lately. That's a good thing. It is a plus to have so many active members offering insight and sharing their work and progress. I think we need to take a deep breath and remember how blessed we are to have this sanctuary to write and share our passion. If we think of it that way we might take things a little slower. Give the work the attention it deserves. After some time here I have learned the styles and pleasures of very many good writers, it is enough sometimes to give a thumbs up. I think of CV as part magazine and part interactive magazine. We can let it be both a place to enjoy good fresh writing and a place to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone. So, for some people that means giving critique even when it feels strange and for others it means delving into new styles and formats and seeing what works. For me the exercise of critiquing has become as important to my development as a write as the writing and editing of my own poems has been. I am reaching with every critique to extend my knowledge of what works in a poem in general, and what works for me in particular. I try to keep my comments about those two things separate, at least make it as clear as possible. I must admit that more than a few times I have felt the sting of isolation when a suggestion of mine is critiqued by a following comment, but I have learned that this too is part of the deal. I may change my mind, I may stand my ground or explain further or I may decide it's a matter of taste- but the most important thing is to not take it personally. The question was what kind of critique helps me write, and BTW that is an excellent question, Kathy! I have liked all kinds: in-line helped me a lot when I was a beginner to crit when I first came, it helps to see where the flow has problems; I want to know if anything confuses, slows the read, jumps out, bumps, goes wandering (and not in a good way!) and of course, I want to know what worked, pleasantly surprised, hit home, hurt (also in a good way!). I think this level of critique should be expected in CV. I don't really see the point of posting poems that the writer doesn't want to know these things. If your work is not in need of at least this level of critique maybe it should be sent out to publishers instead, where it can be enjoyed by a poetry reading audience that has no inclination to give advice. -Laz | ||
| Richard M
Intermediate Member Username: youngjed Post Number: 827 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi Kathy, firstly FRED HAS AN EVIL TWIN????? Secondly, I think the thing to do is for people who want more detailed crits and especially some of the very good CVers (you know who we think you are) to post more in BIO. Thirdly, I do tend to post suggestions in CV. I'm not always sure they're well received, but I don't think it causes major offence. Maybe I should stop - I've certainly reined myself in from time to time. I too am supicious of the endless rounds of praise - particularly when they do not come my way...;-) Fourthly, it may be worth putting our reviewing preferences in our signatures as I (for one) rarely look at profiles to check review preferences. I do sometimes check out what kind of music people like. Go figure... Fifthly, I still think CV works pretty well Sixthly, I do not expect as a crit-ter to see all my crits taken on board. Nor do i expect detailed rebuttals (sometimes these are interesting and useful, often they are not, but I think its qworth teh author getting it off their chest if they want to rebut and it certainly does not hurt me to read them! Seventhly, long live WPF. Its actually got a great culture and while positive hange is welcome all is pretty good.... Love to all.... r (Message edited by youngjed on June 23, 2009) Wherever this poem is posted, please feel free to critique. I'd like to hear, in this order, what you think might be improved; a general reaction (from you are Kooser to zzzz); and, if you have the time, what you liked best. http://whatssoonly.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11821 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeffrey, I wouldn't worry about posting in CV. I looked at it all as a misunderstanding. We had someone new come to the board who didn't know your work or what type of crit you liked, and she offered a generous crit that she would offer to anybody. Her style of crit didn't fit what you were looking for. Wires got crossed. M removed the thread, so its not there for people to worry over, and poeple have short memories. Fred, I know what you mean. "Nice" can kill your poem, and keep you from your full potential as a poet. Laz, thanks for sharing what you want from a crit, I wish more people at Wild were at that point. What you said about sending out to the publisher, well that could take a few people down a few pegs, take away that false sense of accomplishment and show some that maybe they really do need the crit and the revisions. Richard, I would like to see more members use Bio, but some are not brave enough. But if you really want a thoughtful, constructive crit it is the place to post. Posting suggestions in CV is a-okay, in fact I wish people did more of it, instead of the generic responses. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5117 Registered: 10-2005 |
Since many here, and in other discussions, have suggested a crit preference in the signatures maybe we could come up with a rating system to express our preferences. This could be changed with the post, perhaps a special set of emoticons; from give it to me on fire, to keep it cool. "Cool" would be useful for the poems that have very sensitive material in them. I know many people are already careful with poems that carry a lot of emotional weight, but it doesn't hurt to make it plain. Then "Hot" could be for the really experimental things that we want torn apart if they need it. (Maybe? although I hate to make extra work for the wild admin.) Richard- On the subject of the "better poets" who post at CV. If they are not looking for much in the way of critique I don't see a reason to post in Bio. I wanted to say also that the type of crit you are giving seems right to me (based only on a few observations) so I wouldn't stop doing that, and that many of the poems that are really good don't actually get a lot of comments. I think because some work is just that good and doesn't need help. For myself, it may be over my head. Sometimes I don't understand what is good about a poem but I am likely not going to raise an issue of a number of excellent poets have already praised it. -Laz | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 2137 Registered: 01-2005 |
Laz, I "recognized" myself when Richard (very good points, Richard, btw) suggested that those more able (board's 'better' poets) post more in Bio). I do know that I do have a good track record in receiving HM's in M's Challenges and not all, but a few, know that I've been around crit boards for a few years (eleven now?). Only thing I'd like to stress is that...while I may be able to compose a decent poem (the rejection letters keep telling me how great I am..lol)... I really am not BRAVE enough to post in the in-depth forum. Not only that, I've been burned so many, many, many, many times by folks at other in-depth boards that I really am...not to be too melodramatic...TERRIFIED of them. I really am. Just because I'm able to write a poem doesn't me I'm any better equipped than any one on this entire WILD network to offer in-depth crit. I find that my crit is gradually improving. But it has been an awful upward struggle. I've been told I write "with the best of em" but honestly I do not have the advantage of college level English course. NADA. I guess I COULD now move over to the in-depth board and do a better job without fearing retaliation...but I've just been "crushed" once too often in the past when I've honestly tried to to this. Poets are born not made Critters are born not made Neither one of the above statments is true. er somethin. now I'm confused. Sorry laz. Just my last few cents. ~T. | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11822 Registered: 12-2003 |
The thing with putting your crit preference in your post, signature, or profile is that not many people take the time to look at that, not many will read the preamble on a poem, if your preference is in your signature many have already started to crit before they've read it, and unfortunately I don't think many people read profiles. I know I didn't used to. Most people tend to go right to the poem, and crit how they are used to critting, or fall in line with the rest of the crits already posted on it. So, I guess the best place to put your preference to crit, should you want to, would be in a preamble to your poem, but keep it short and sweet. I just did that with a poem I posted in Bio. Many catch on to what you like by what kind of crit you offer and what kind you respond to in the threads of your poems. It just gets a bit dicey when we have new members, or several new members, that are still feeling their way around the board. Even if a poem is that good that it doesn't need help it is nice to at least acknowledge the poem. The author doesn't know how good you think it is until you tell them. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5121 Registered: 10-2005 |
T~ I recognise my own terrification in your post. I have only ever posted a few poems on Bio. For some reason I have this knack for posting my worst poems in there and I am always crushed to find that out. BUT I learned something from each of those disasters at a faster rate than I would have. There is something so scary about making the statement that a poem is "good enough for heavy Crit." HOWever, I am on a sharp learning curve at the moment. I've decided that if I don't figure out this poem making soon I'm going to stop. I've given it almost 5 years of continuous effort. I figure I'm at or nearing the 10,000 hour mark. It won't matter to me where I post my poems, if I reach my goal of writing from the heart. The tools of the craft are in there, they are sharpened and oiled. Now the only thing that matters is if I can use them well consistently. -Laz | ||
| M
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 34511 Registered: 11-1998 |
Just stepping in here to say that I am reading all this and listening to what everyone has to say. If I had more time at the moment, I'd be responding. Unfortunately, that's impossible right now. In addition to managing my parents situation, an offer has finally come in on their home in Reno. So, I'm dealing with a mother new to her memory care home, a father who is grieving and we have to pack up and move to another residence, and a home sale offer/counteroffer deal. All at the same time. And Dad has a doc's appt. this afternoon and wants to visit Mom. So, I'll be out doing that. If someone tosses me another ball to juggle today, I'm not sure what I'll do. I've run out of arms and legs. Anyway, as soon as I clear some space in my schedule, I'll come back to read this thread more thoroughly. Do know that discussions are going on in the background about all of this, but mostly the fact that CV moves too fast. We're kicking around ideas. As soon as something fluid turns into something concrete that we think has a chance of working, we'll get back to you. Oh, and Jeffrey -- I'm sorry for the conflict that occurred. But I think that you and most parties involved handled themselves appropriately. I think it was a positive problem resolution and that we all learned something. I understand why you'd be hurt and gun shy, but do realize that no one thinks badly of you. Problems come up every once in a while. We handle it as best we can. As long as everyone is doing the best they can, we're satisfied. I hope you'll go back to posting. As Kathy said, people have short memories. And you're a valued member here at Wild. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5122 Registered: 10-2005 |
Kathy- I like doing a preamble on poems that I have certain ideas about. But I've found it sometimes hijacks the discussion and I'm left wondering what would have been if I had not done that. But I can see a very simple statement like this is experimental or this is how I was feeling might be helpful. } "Many catch on to what you like by what kind of crit you offer and what kind you respond to in the threads of your poems. It just gets a bit dicey when we have new members, or several new members, that are still feeling their way around the board." These things cancel each other out, don't they! On the good poems/poets I agree, we can't overlook good work anymore than we can ignore work that needs a lot of help. -Laz | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5123 Registered: 10-2005 |
M- Don't worry about not being in here while your life goes crazy. You are with us in spirit! -Laz | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11823 Registered: 12-2003 |
Teresa, I certainly understand your hesitation to post in Bio. I had the same one myself for quite a while. I have no experience at other boards, but from various comments here at Wild I know some of them tear the poems apart and can get quite personal. I haven't seen or experienced that in Bio. Maybe we need to redefine in-depth critique? I don't see it as ripping a poem apart or thrashing it until its not what it started out as. I see it as telling the poet what works and doesn't work, offering suggestions to to consider for change, and maybe offering an in-line critque. I posted a poem in Bio a while back, that when I look back on it, was more or less an outline of what the poem could be. I had someone really question my intent, and nudge me and get me thinking and working on it, and when I was done, if I remember right the poem took an HM. I think that's what Bio is all about, the improvemnt, if that's what the poet is looking for. M, thanks for checking in. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11188 Registered: 07-2002 |
Teresa--Sue and I work hard to keep BIO a safe space. And no one (least of all me!) was any kind of expert in critique at the beginning of our tenure there. In fact, I used to think I had to do specific line edits and show how I would (re)write the poem. I do that less and less now, and opt to show the poet my reactions as I read the poem on a line by line or stanza by stanza basis. Sometimes I do make specific suggestions, and that is because it is easier/takes less time to give an example than make a long explanation. I think the most important aspect of in depth crit is to make the poem *more* the poet's and less the commenter's, if that makes sense. I, for one, would love to have your eye in BIO. If you (or anyone else) decides to dip a toe in, I'll make sure the water is warm. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11827 Registered: 12-2003 |
Laz, I don't see how those statements cancel each other out, they're pretty much saying the same thing. It takes a while for a new member to settle in, find the flow, and figure out what kind of crit people like to get. Lisa, thanks for checking in. I know exactly what you mean about critting the poem to make it *more* the poet's and less the commenters. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Senior Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 2641 Registered: 01-2006 |
I just like lots and lots of praise. And barbecue chicken. Barbecue chicken always helps me write. So, praise and barbecue chicken. That'll do it. (Seriously, though, since I have a hard time critiquing, mainly from an aversion to tampering with the authentic voice of the poet, which I believe is pretty important, although ephemeral, I cannot tell you what critiques help the most. I suppose the ones where I can tell no one has an agenda they want to pursue are helpful. I have been helped by placement critiques. Sometimes one's thoughts get a little ahead or behind and are not always written in the order they should have been. It's good to have someone see that. Other things, too, hard to name them all here. Ones that are NOT are ones where the reader tells you how THEY would have written the poem--not just suggestions, but the whole poem--or ones that are simply mean spirited--though I must say that particular annoyance hardly ever happens-- I usually ignore those unless I am feeling feisty.) ad You are cordially invited to my blog, which has poetry, music, circus clowns, balloons, rats, bats, dirty water hotdogs, and mucho more! http://ohhush.tumblr.com/ | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5124 Registered: 10-2005 |
Kathy - If there are new people on the board then the critique is not going to be from someone who knows you. That's all I meant. Trying to be funny. But also pointing out that you can't count on anything going the same way all the time. You have to keep your heart open because life is not predictable. Ad- Like your attitude-- more BBQ chicken I say --yeah! But seriously, I hear your point about not re-writing the poem in your own style, or as you would have, or at least saying, "this is how I would have..." -Laz | ||
| Meriall Blackwood
New member Username: merblackwood Post Number: 14 Registered: 05-2009 |
M, my life was in that sort of state for most of the nineties and early aughts, for similar reasons: failing ancestral health. It's very wearing and time-consuming. I've critiqued short stories and novels, and there I have some grasp of what to watch out for, in terms of authors' preferences. The big ones are whether someone is looking for critique or cheerleading (and I consider both legitimate desires); whether they want line-level edits or just comments about large-scale issues; and whether they want suggestions. Also, it's not usually helpful to critique a genre one dislikes: I'm not likely to be much good as a critic of romance because the genre as a whole doesn't grab me. Someone who wants help distinguishing good romance writing from bad is better off asking a romance reader. Critiquing poetry is another matter. I have no experience with it; but a larger problem is that I have scant appreciation for free verse. Mostly, it leaves me cold; on the occasions when I like it, I can't explain why. About the only thing I could say is 'I like it.' I don't know if I'd do better with formal verse or not. There's so much more free verse that it isn't easy to locate the formal. With my own verse, sometimes I can explain why it doesn't work; sometimes the only thing I can say, on rereading, is that it just isn't grabby enough. I don't know what anyone else would make of "It isn't grabby enough." So I haven't tried critiquing anybody else's verse yet. What if a dragon decided you were the enemy? Fantasy Poetry | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11832 Registered: 12-2003 |
Laz, I think sometimes I just misinterpret your posts when you are trying to be funny. I agree, life isn't predictable, so some people probably won't catch on, but most will, especially once you've built a repoire with them. Ad, praise I can give, but BBQ chicken, is there virtual BBQ chicken? I know what you mean about writing someone's poem over in your own words. I think that's what Lisa was referring to. That's why I don't do so many in-lines any more unless I'm just correcting grammar, punctuation, small things like that. Sometimes when I get into an in-line I see more than I would if I just read and commented, and I start putting my voice in there. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 28478 Registered: 07-2001 |
Andrew, BBQ Nehi raised high. BTW, for me ribs or pulled pork. Now back to the thread. Smiles. Gary who is watching this thread and thinking what he would say - so far nothing much Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| sue kay
Moderator Username: suekay Post Number: 1408 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lisa, I have always loved to get a line by line. (espcially yours) I like seeing how a reader gets into a poem or not as the case may be. You can pretty much tear it apart in my case and see what it looks like reassembled. Even if I don't accept the suggestions, I find that they usually help me clarify why and what I wrote at least for myself. Because that works for me, I tend to try to offer that. However, one does get close to or crosses the line between critique and rewrite. No one has to take anything offered. I figure its always the poets choice, and frankly I have had some rather brilliant suggestions offered to me that I was happy to take. But not everyone is. I try to tailor my comments to the reader's wants, but to be honest. I also spend a lot of time on research before a critique. I want to make sure that what I think I am saying is accurate. I also double check everything I think I know to make sure I haven't misremembered, and also fact check everything. I don't want to get something critical wrong or out of place. AND STILL, I offend for which to anyone I have done this I now apologise. LOL. regards Sue | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11191 Registered: 07-2002 |
Thank you, Sue. I believe I have learned more from critiquing others' work than in receiving critique on my own. And most of what I do in a critique is think 'out loud' about what I am reading as I read it. Those thoughts/questions become the core of what I end up writing down. It's not rocket science, but it does take some patience and a willingness to take ego/self out of the process. Actually, that's important both for the writer and the critiquer--and something I must remind myself everytime I read a crit on my own work. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| d.marie
New member Username: dmarie Post Number: 38 Registered: 06-2009 |
Maybe a silly comment from the "newbie” what if you feel you lack the skill to seriously critique, which is my problem. I hate to whine, but lately time for me is so rare. When I write it is spur of the moment and I just spell check. Also, I write mostly free prose, try to keep lines at correct beat and rhyme. So perhaps I am not a poet. I write in forms when inspired by something I’ve read. I actually stopped writting when the childrens medical issues got worse. I found this site and got very (as some pointed out LOL) excited. Firstly, M was superhelpful and so nice and quick to answer my questions. I got great advice from VanBuren on a poem that had been posted b/f I changed user name. I loved her advice and changed the poem. Most of the critiques make me think. After reading what someone called a tanka I went and rewrote something which was just a ramble. I turned it into three tankas. I know what a Tanka is, but not whether you can turn three into one peom? But it is the advice form a few here that makes me want to improve. And b/c of the great poets I am reading I am motivated to make time to sit down and learn. Then there was the comment "sounds like a diary entry” that was not helpful at all. Also, sometimes I want to be succinct and leave the poem making someone wonder. What is a poem anyway??? Can it be short and evasive or must it always be detailed and descriptive? When I get advice "this needs more detail---” I am not sure I want to change the poem. I like the technical advice and even as with Vanburen a re wording. Geez, I guess I could have just said "I like technical advice and am uneducated in litiature". Sorry for the rant. tlkstumcuh is my Native American name. | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11873 Registered: 12-2003 |
Denice, critique can be just pointing out a line in the poem that you really like or telling the reader how you related to the poem. There are some threads in our library forum about how to critique. Learning critque is not easy, but after you're here for a while you will figure out what people are telling you, and be able to critique. Don't expect to get it all in the first day or month. That you are open to advice and trying new things means that you are willing to learn and that is a good place to start. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 28517 Registered: 07-2001 |
d. What tribe? And a hermit crab? Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5142 Registered: 10-2005 |
d.marie- Kathy gave you good advice on giving critique. I will say about receiving it that you have to keep an open mind. There is no one forcing you to change your poem. But someone has taken their time to read and respond to it in the way they think is best, so it is always important to accept what they say with grace. If you don't want to use their suggestion you don't have to say so, just say I'll think about that. If you might use it but don't quite understand it, then by all means ask. You may not get an answer right away but in time if you ask enough questions around here you will get the answers you need. On the question of detail, I suggest you read lots of different kinds of poems and find out which ones you like best. That is the best way to find your own groove and write what you like. Reading poets that have been published and enjoyed by lots of poetry lovers is so important in developing your own voice. I suggest poets.org as a good place to read. They have the masters and the current popular writers just a few clicks away. -Laz | ||
| luc marshall
Member Username: anony Post Number: 81 Registered: 06-2008 |
In my opinion, it is helpful to tell someone (at least in BIO) both what works and what does not work. While BIO is not a nursery, people may post there because they think they have reached that level (it's not as if one of the mod sends them a private email to say: You're ready for BIO now). So, unless it is a case where the reader deems the poem 'unworthy' of BIO, I think it helps the poet's growth to say what is commendable and what is lacking/weak (and, sometimes, in a brief way, why). This, to me, helps a poet grow. I think it also shows respect for a poet, and while some here may think it is mollycoddling, I say there is nothing wrong with respect. "We write our thoughts upon a page ... so they may be forever read" - Acadymous | ||
| d.marie
New member Username: dmarie Post Number: 39 Registered: 06-2009 |
Gary, the big mouth tribe. Not well known but they say you can hear them. Like when you hear that ringing in one ear and you used to think that meant that aliens were trying to communicate with you, that could be a big mouth. They are from So. Calif, but ran out of ears and moved to the Middle East where they were quite content to talk to those whos language they could not unserstand. Once they learned a little, they ran off to NYC where they could talk to themselves in the street and fit in perfectly well. of course the hermit crab was brought into my life by a man. I did not catch it. it is getting bigger and sometimes I think of eating it, but I do try to keep some kosher laws. Kathy / Laz. thanks for advice. My mind is defiantely open, whats left of it LOL. | ||
| d.marie
New member Username: dmarie Post Number: 41 Registered: 06-2009 |
OK I just revised "she walks by" I did it the way that M explained, but how do you change the title in the thread to say revised? How would anyone know to go back to critique it again. Thanks | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1661 Registered: 11-2007 |
the best way to revise is to leave the old original in place, and paste a revision below it. people will come by to see what you did, and if the original and the revision are in the same post box its easier for them to compare. You can't change the title, but in a situation like this you don't need to. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| M
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 34547 Registered: 11-1998 |
As Judy explained, d.marie, members can't changed the title of the thread. The system indexes on titles, and if they are changed indiscriminating, the system loses its mind and starts misfiling things. You can have the title of a thread edited merely by making a specific request, either here in ESSENTIAL OILS or by writing to us at moderators@wildpoetryforum.com. However, as Judy also pointed out, you don't need to add "revised" to the title of the thread. We mods don't have the time to change titles to add "revised" every time someone makes a revision. Simply making and adding the revision to the original post in the thread is sufficient. Best, M | ||
| Perry L. Powell
New member Username: perry Post Number: 34 Registered: 05-2009 |
This is the first I've ever participated in a forum, so I thought I'd offer some newbie thoughts. I'm pretty thick-skinned, so I don't mind severe criticism in the least. If someone says they hate my stuff (what kind of idiot wants to do traditional verse anyway?) or think it cliche-ridden or abstract or I should just give up, that's okay. (I probably won't give up just yet; I have to do something with the five hundred or so printed pages I've got sitting in a box next to my chair! Don't need kindling yet; it's summer.) :-) But what struck me as a bit surprising (perhaps it shouldn't have) was the diversity of the responses you sometimes get. I was reminded of Ben Franklin's story about the tailor's sign (by the time the tailor takes all his friends suggestions for improving his new sign, there's no sign left). It's a bit disconcerting to discover that what one person likes about what you did is what another person thinks is the worst part. I always appreciate criticism and if I fail to say "Thanks!" I'm genuinely sorry. I'm likely distracted by questions a critique raises for me and I may well respond with questions back that I hope don't seem argumentative. I'm posting or planning to post things that (at least for me) raise questions that I am trying to resolve for myself: how cryptic/private can a poem be and still be meaningful? what is the role of rhyme and traditional forms (are they simply verboten?)? how much should poetry deal with characters and feelings? can a poem carry ideas only? must it be only images? what exactly is an image? when should a line end? what exactly is a cliche anyway? In short, I guess I'm as interested in why a poem is receiving a specific critique as in applying that critique to the particular poem--though both are clearly connected. What do you know that I don't? What are you sure about that I'm not? What are you not sure about that I maybe haven't questioned? If that makes any sense... I find there are a lot of different ideas about poetry and how to make it around and I'm trying to resolve a number of them in my own head for my own future work. I guess I still "contain multitudes", some of whom are headed off in different directions. :-) Being a new kid on the block and undecided about a lot of things, I've been a bit reluctant to criticize in great depth, though I have tried to be helpful. It's not always clear to me what another person is trying to do with a stream of words. But if I don't get it, I'll say I don't get it. If I really like something I'll say so. If I don't, I'll either not comment at all or try to indicate what I don't like about it. If I have suggestions I'll offer them, use or don't as you like. Fair enough? Take care. (Message edited by perry on June 26, 2009) |
