| Author | Message | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1630 Registered: 11-2007 |
From a very personal standpoint, how much specificity in a poem is necessary for you--does it depend on the poem, your own need to be centered in the piece, or do you prefer less rather than more? And those same questions apply whether you are reading one or writing one... Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Brianna
Intermediate Member Username: shkethtmnymkrhorsey Post Number: 937 Registered: 12-2007 |
I think it depends more on the poem and the mood the author is trying to get across. (: Dying is your favorite passion. :]Escape The Fate | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 11162 Registered: 07-2002 |
Judy--more rather than less. I think a mistake many beginning writers make is to craft a poem that feels generic; their reasoning being that vague details would let the reader bring his or her own experience into the piece. Vague and generic images, paradoxically, do just the opposite. While highly specific images invite the reader into the world of the poem. One caveat: there needs to be some shared basis for those images. I can imagine a culture with highly specific images that another culture has not ability to comprehend. That would make the communication between writer and reader difficult. Good question. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog "Chop Wood, Carry Water" | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 3480 Registered: 04-2007 |
Dear Judy, I think about this a lot when I'm writing. What's too much, what's not enough? And then there are times when I'll wax poetic and there's no furniture, and all that I'm left with is a greasy dust cloth and a can of wax, I suppose there's a poem in there too, but i want details. But not so many that I feel crowded. The details must sing, carry their notes, sometimes in key, more often a cacophony. It's just so damn complicated. I have a headache. What was the question? Oh yeah. It depends. love, brenda | ||
| Anna Brown
Intermediate Member Username: tissuetoyou Post Number: 620 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think it depends on the poem and writer, yes, but also the reader. Some people want more, some less. It's about the reader, too, and you can't please everyone. So I suppose it comes down to what you feel is appropriate and what you like. _________________________________________________ Every Imp could be a bastard, but not every bastard need be short. George R.R. Martin - A Game of Thrones | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 6267 Registered: 05-2006 |
I do not think that beginning poets believe that "vague details would let the reader bring his or her own experience into the piece" -- for the reason that this assumes that a beginning poet has delved into literary theory and is simply misunderstanding what is meant by the dictum that a reader should co-create a poem. Instead, I believe that beginning poets have not thought about literary theory, especially, they have not thought about what -- in poems and stories they read -- makes those things enjoyable and memorable. After all, a great many beginning poets use their poetry as simply a structured form of journaling. * * * * * That said, detail in writing is crucial to stimulating the mind's eye to "get a little movie going" in the brain in parallel with what's happening on the page. Moreover, when seeking "life's verities," reason looks toward a mass of evidence whereas emotion looks toward anecdotes. Knowing that 1,247,000 children suffer from thyroid deficiency establishes a hard fact, but evokes little emotionally; on the other hand, the story of one child suffering from this condition and painted in detail reaches directly into the heart. Fred YOUR FOOTNOTE ADVERTISEMENT HERE. Call 1-555-555-5555 and ask for Fred. 10% discount if you mention Wild Poetry Forum. | ||
| Hephaestes
Advanced Member Username: hephaestes Post Number: 1077 Registered: 12-2006 |
A writer must anchor a reader. No matter what type of writing -- please offer this statement a touch of license -- good writing isn't generic. What we often miss, specificity in a piece of writing goes beyond expositions and character descriptions. Peppering a piece with sharp details is key. Flannery O'Connor describes the three brush strokes a writer should apply to each important character, as the just enough, not too much. She's discussing fiction, but we poets can also learn from her. Our brush strokes may be thinner or wider, but still they deserve our focus. That said, another factor, the harder part of creating your own world, is rarely discussed in this context: tone. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1632 Registered: 11-2007 |
There are times when a generic object is just that. You want it to be the vehicle, perhaps, of the poem, but not the main focus. If you're standing on a rug about to commit suicide, does one need to know that it's a turkey red 19th century aubusson with fringe and tassels? Then again, I have seen place poems (which I generally dislike because if I've never been there it's hard for me to connect) where the place is inherent in the piece itself, and part of the poem. It isnt ABOUT the place, but it's necessary to be there. Heph, discuss tone. Please. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Hephaestes
Advanced Member Username: hephaestes Post Number: 1078 Registered: 12-2006 |
Specific writing can use abstractions and generalizations. The key, you flesh the general in the concrete. You give the general context. Consider the thesis paper. The premise is often a blanket statement, but the body of the paper that supports your arguments must contain something less general. Likewise, folks who consider a poem concrete aren't saying it has no generic statements. Generic statements can be the doorway for a reader. They're generic because they're everyone's -- they also for this reason describe the collective, not the individual. Please note that anchoring a reader often requires a mix of generic and concrete. Too much specificity weighs down a piece of writing. Such language, too full of observation, reads like a scientist's notes, especially since we often describe emotions in somewhat generic terms. Here we come to voice and tone. I'm not talking about grammar (passive versus active); consider voice the narrator. We hear in it the personality. Also dialect and word choice may offer us a body and a region and an educational background and so on. The way the voice colors the poem is the tone. Tone shades a poem. Describes a narrator's feelings; sometimes without telling us. Of course telling is the major negative. As reader, we want the table set for our meal. But we don't want to be spoon-fed. Setting the table requires defining the individual. This can be done directly -- the writer offers concrete details. Specificity can also be implied. For instance, the narrator speaks in restrained, unemotional terms. There is a false sense of pride in the voice. And so on. Such writing also may be considered concrete because it defines the individual. | ||
| Hephaestes
Advanced Member Username: hephaestes Post Number: 1079 Registered: 12-2006 |
Sorry, Judy. Please note: I know nothing. Forgive the crappy pontificating. I'm just bullshitting. | ||
| sue kay
Moderator Username: suekay Post Number: 1391 Registered: 11-2005 |
Heph, I like your input. I think it is an important subject. Tone discussed at frostfriends.org There are numerous and sometimes conflicting text book definitions of tone: "The poet's or persona's attitude in style or expression toward the subject, e.g., loving, ironic, bitter, pitying, fanciful, solemn, etc. Tone can also refer to the overall mood of the poem itself, in the sense of a pervading atmosphere intended to influence the readers' emotional response and foster expectations of the conclusion." (Glossary of Poetic Terms from BOB'S BYWAY) "The writer's or speaker's attitude toward his subject, his audience, or himself; the emotional coloring, or emotional meaning, of a work." (Sound and Sense: An Introduction to Poetry by Laurence Perrine) "The word tone in literary discussion is borrowed from the expression tone of voice. Tone is the manner in which a poet makes his statement; it reflects his attitude toward his subject. Since printed poems lack the intonations of spoken words, the reader must learn to "hear" their tones with his mind's ear. Tone cannot be heard in one particular place since it reflects a general attitude, it pervades the whole poem." (Poems: Wadsworth Handbook and Anthology by C. F. Main & Peter J. Seng) "Tone expresses the poet's attitude toward his audience. We all experience tone in everyday life. A speaker's placing of emphasis, his tone of voice, his facial expression, even his gestures all help the hearer to determine the speaker's meaning and attitude." (The Order of Poetry, An Introduction Bloom, Philbrick and Blistein) Most of us could describe the "tone" of a poem as it's basic emotional canvas. It gives us a value reading on the words as they are put in. For example, in painting tone is used to describe the value of a colours as it appears on a chart from light to dark.(as mixed with varying quantities of white) A mid tone painting will use mostly values from the middle range, building contrast through the placement of colours (warm/cool, saturated/unsaturated, light/dark) with the range betwen them very narrow. Also called "close value." Take for example this painting by John Henry Twachtman.  Most of us can tell the tone of this picture. It is a close value cool rendering of a cloudy day. The subtext here is calm and somber. There are very few high contrasts. The warm colours pop not because they are saturated and high key, but because they are placed next to mid value and cool colours. If you excised the warm areas and put them on a white sheet, they would look dull and muddy. Conversely, if you put the area of the darkest dark on a totally black piece of paper it would appear "light." The darks here appear to be an admixture of transparent darks, that give a vibrancy to what could be a black hole if painted in completely saturated value. So its not about the absolute value of a colour but placement in context with the other elements of the painting. Colours "read" in relation to all the other colours in the work. This is a good analogy for words in a poem to me. If we had a word chart, like a colour chart, we could assign them meaning that would work as a starting point, but when we use them in context with other words, we leave that easily defined graphic absolute and get into "values." Heh. Which means, what is specific in one poem may be altered by its relationship to other words in other poems. That would be the tone thing. As has been said, "It depends." A good poet uses his words to focus us not on the specific colours they contain but how they effect all elements of the poem to give us something more than an array of images that are all quite nice but don't cohere in they way the above painting does. Hah, now there's a pontification for which I can apologise, and will right now. regards sue | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 7644 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Judy Isn't it a matter of grabbing the reader's attention? A poem that deals in generalities is not going to do that. A poem needs to be unique and not share its ingredients with other poems. The poet should be making a statement not dealing with pablum. Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.thedesertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 28450 Registered: 07-2001 |
pablum spit on the floor high chair clothes chin hands and that's just what got on me... Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| "A-Bear"
Senior Member Username: dane Post Number: 2436 Registered: 11-1998 |
Billy Collins versus e.e. cummings. Personally, I prefer Billy. That's what it all boils down to in the end. It is for me. I mean, if it doesn't make sense, and I can't smoke, drink, or screw it, just what good is it ? Poetry she said, has to have a soul and sing with the sounds of assonance. Not only alliteration to titillate the sensibilities but the burning blubbery of bruising bones and bygones. A crescendo of musical word sounds, without cleft lipped cliches written to sour the softness of nouns and vowels when whispered wistfully in one's mind or spoken aloud. It doesn't matter if a poem's depth is understood anymore, only that it magically makes music encapsulating the ear's inner energy kinetically connecting it to the clueless mind. Jazz juice for a tongue's tiny tasting. Yeah, right. ~D~ | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1633 Registered: 11-2007 |
Heph, no need to apologize. What you say (and that was not pontificating, that was an excellent description) is what I try to do, (most of the time) when I write. It isnt deliberate, it's just the way it happens. In a way its like a movie camera--you can start with a long shot, (which is the generic) and dolly in for the tight close up (which is the specific), and sometimes back out again for an overview of what just happened, here. It can also go the other way. In each case, at least for me, the two processes help explain each other. This is a perfect example of the specific becoming generic, and back again, and it's one of my favorite poems http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/Billy-Collins/8970 But there are times when a tree needs to be a maple, and others when it needs to be a tree. Not all rivers have names, not all bridges necessarily merit long descriptions, and sometimes where you are isn't nearly as important as how you got there. Now and then I will find a poem that needs to be anchored with place names, and even though they are no names I ever heard or will ever visit, they give that tone to the poem, if only because of the writing that went with it. I think the quality of the writing matters far more than the attention to deep detail; without that, you have a list of objects, but not much else. I guess it's all about balance, and what the poem itself needs. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Howard R
Valued Member Username: writerhoward Post Number: 125 Registered: 01-2009 |
One purpose of poetry is to create images that your readers can envision. The more concrete you make your images, the more similar your readers' version of the images will likely be to yours. For example, envision "dog." Then, envision "collie." Notice the differences. You can find a decent write-up on images, symbols, and metaphors in poetry at http://www2.ivcc.edu/rambo/lit2001_poetry_intro.htm. (Message edited by writerhoward on June 17, 2009) | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1259 Registered: 10-2005 |
I opt for greater specificity most of the time for some of the aforementioned reasons; largely because I have rather specific thoughts I'd like to express. ;) But nothing prevents a poet from using both the specific and the non-specific in a single poem... in fact, that can make for an excellent piece if it's done well. Keats' "Ode on a Grecian Urn" does exactly that... most of the renowned poem gives the reader wonderful specifics with regard to the urn's images, as in this passage: "Who are these coming to the sacrifice? To what green altar, O mysterious priest, Lead'st thou that heifer lowing at the skies, And all her silken flanks with garlands drest?" Yet the famous ending is hardly specific: " 'Beauty is truth, truth beauty'--that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." T.S. Eliot may have wanted it removed, but I certainly don't. With all the specificity that preceded it, the reader has a wealth of images and concepts to hang the abstractions on. And it can be interpreted many ways, and we'll never know which one Keats himself meant when he wrote it. It's a fascinating poem. But then again, most of us are not Keats. And certainly a beginning poet would do well to lean towards more specificity rather than less, or his/her poems are going to convey little more than a canvas with broad strokes of the simplest colors that looks like so many other canvases that one can't tell it apart from the others. No value added, as it were. Nothing to say to the reader, even if the poet really had plenty to say. With too many generalities, the revelations of the poet will, unfortunately, be secreted from the rest of us through an impenetrable wall of bland language and hazy phraseology. Hmm... "hazy phraseology" has a nice ring to it. Just my $.02  (Message edited by Runatyr on June 18, 2009) | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1640 Registered: 11-2007 |
howard, there are times when I would agree with you; sometimes it's necessary to know what the dog looks like, or what color the house is--or was--but to my mind only if it moves the poem forrader along the road. i.e., if the house was once white but has faded to grey clapboards, that says a lot about the house--but only if it's necessary to know that right then. and there are other times when stopping to describe the road, the street, the "old weathered Victorian mansion that listed slightly to one side" is more distracting (especially if it's only incidental to the work and not about the house) than not. At those times the object in question needs to be the handy vehicle, not the subject--often my vision of something could not be described in less than 250 words, so I let it turn into something that anyone with a bit of imagination can make theirs. Sometimes too much detail is off-putting and unless it is directly related to where the poem is going it can push a reader away. My feeling is, the more deep unnecessary detail you put in a poem the bigger the risk that you could disengage a reader from his own involvement in the poem. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 5079 Registered: 10-2005 |
Judy- I totally agree with your point about where it gos off the wheels. Heph, your thoughts on how the tone adds to the poem and Sue, your further enumeration of tone were both wonderfully stated and explained. I finally have an idea about how painting and writing poetry are alike, which I needed for my discussions with my sister who is a painter. -Laz | ||
| Howard R
Valued Member Username: writerhoward Post Number: 127 Registered: 01-2009 |
Jeffrey, Your post reminded me of this poem by Robert Frost which, for me, contains vivid imagery. A Patch of Old Snow
(Message edited by writerhoward on June 18, 2009) | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1263 Registered: 10-2005 |
I don't remember reading that Frost poem before, Howard. I like it! |
