| Author | Message | ||
| S. Thomas Summers
Advanced Member Username: s_thomas_summers Post Number: 1633 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm working on a poem titled Perseus Holds the Gorgon's Head - a line from a Stafford poem. The poem's success is hinged to the reader's understanding/knowledge of Perseus and the Gorgon (Medusa). May a poet write a poem that relies on understanding a specific allusion? Can the poet expect his reader to know? Perhaps even do a bit of work to find out? Comment here or on my blog: http://sthomassummers.webs.com/blogthelintinmypocket.htm visit me at http://www.freewebs.com/sthomassummers/ author of "Death settled well" and "Rather, It Should Shine" | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 28423 Registered: 07-2001 |
Yes No No But that should not prevent the writing. You will not reach all readers, but those who do will applaude. I often include references in those in the forums, and sometimes get suggestions for clarity. I would publish without them. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 845 Registered: 03-2008 |
I once had a mentor that said the best way to show respect for a reader was to challenge them. Wishing you the best with your difficult poem. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 6258 Registered: 05-2006 |
Back in 2000, it was "Gore's ahead, Gone." The myth resurfaced! * * * * * You don't have to appeal to everyone, but when you submit it make sure it goes to a journal willing to print poems that appeal to restrictive audiences. The fact that the names of the mythological characters are in the title makes it easy for anyone who likes to Google to look up all the actors in the drama. * * * * * That said, you'll need to tiptoe around the issue of "monster cruelty." Some people are highly sympathetic to Gorgons. Gorgon Rights Coalition Fred YOUR FOOTNOTE ADVERTISEMENT HERE. Call 1-555-555-5555 and ask for Fred. 10% discount if you mention Wild Poetry Forum. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1628 Registered: 11-2007 |
you write the poem you want to write, and need to write. There are plenty of poems out there that are over someone's head, for one reason or another. If a poem is good, the quality will transcend the literary allusions and stand by itself. I think you need to trust your own voice, and the poem, and the reader to figure it out. you're not being deliberately obscure, and to start dumbing down a poem to please a wider audience often ends up coming across as demeaning and insulting to those who do get it. Poems shouldnt need footnotes unless they are writen in Chaucerian english. *g* I mentioned Amy Clampitt's book "Kingfisher" somewhere in here, and how annoyed I was by the assumption that most of us would not get her biologically technical(and not very interesting, frankly) poems about fish, birds, and other critters out there--even if I dont get all the words, I can still get the gist of a poem, and if I want to know, I'll look it up. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| sue kay
Moderator Username: suekay Post Number: 1382 Registered: 11-2005 |
Echoing Gary, Yes, no, no. I think it is good to challenge a reader as Roby said, but if the reader resists, you shouldn't pull back to satisfy someone's wish for an easier read. There is advertising; sound bites, easily understood cultural cues and a commercial message, then there is the extended drama with a more challenging and meaningful experience. Most people blast through the ads when given a choice. Believe! (in your readers) Anyway, good question. Lots more can be said in response. regards sue | ||
| Will Eastland
Advanced Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 1060 Registered: 07-2006 |
Write while the flame burns. Sort out which poems will likely have an audience other than yourself later. Progress is a comfortable disease. ~e e cummings | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Senior Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 2574 Registered: 01-2006 |
Since I confessed to not knowing the allusions, I can only assume this was at least in part addressed to me. You're right in this sense: I should not have attempted to critique a poem that I didn't understand, and I apologize. And: you're right. It takes only a second to look up references. As William Carlos Williams said, "I wanted to write a poem that you would understand. For what good is it to me if you can't understand it?--But you got to try hard." cheers ad | ||
| S. Thomas Summers
Advanced Member Username: s_thomas_summers Post Number: 1636 Registered: 10-2006 |
Andrew - no apology needed. Your comments simply brought this topic to mind. visit me at http://www.freewebs.com/sthomassummers/ author of "Death settled well" and "Rather, It Should Shine" | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11745 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think it depends who your reader is. If it's someone who reads poetry for enjoyment, say the general public, then they probably aren't going to get the references and they probably aren't going to look them up. They're going to say I don't get this. If its someone who writes poetry and participates in a workshop they will probably take the time to look up what they don't know. I guess it's that accessible poetry question again, who are you writing for? Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 28427 Registered: 07-2001 |
Thoughts: If we limit our subject matter by forgoing classical or even topical references, the obscure, we take away words - something I am opposed to. In addition, using those as subjects helps improve the art and craft. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1631 Registered: 11-2007 |
agreed, Gary, all the way. One other thing that I think we forget; most 'accessible' poetry is in anthologies of "100 best loved poems" in waldenbooks. the kind of accessible we think of is usually not available to the reading public, simply because they don't have access of or knowledge about the kinds of magazines we submit to and are published in. Except for the new yorker, I can't think of a single print journal (except for the new england review) which is 'out there' where casual poetry readers are. I know of only one site here in NH, in concord, where people could find lit mags. If they knew what they were or what they were about. I think we keep forgetting that. The people who cruise the net (as casual poetry readers) are more apt to land at Poetry.com than an online poetry publishing magazine. Im not being a snob, here, just a realist. I think the general public that Kathy is referring to is really not a lit mag reading public, and if they buy an anthology of poems rarely will buy more. Think about this: when was the last time you happened across a poem in a magazine that was devoted to other things and used them casually as fill? Many of our older poets got their start this way, and there were some amazing poems printed before 1950, and damned few lit mags. I don't think we have to worry about the general public finding this stuff over their heads, I think we have to worry about them finding us. period. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| sue kay
Moderator Username: suekay Post Number: 1390 Registered: 11-2005 |
I wonder if the elephant in the room, (# 586 on the list of cliches) isn't the general lack of knowledge that results from modern education. When I was young, way back when, it was not something to be proud of, or a point of pride that someone used language and references we didn't understand and more importantly didn't want to. I do not understand an educated or even well read person not identifying certain references such as the ones used in Scott's poem. It simply shocks me. These are not deep or arcane images, they form a great deal of our common cultural heritage, images, ideas, psychology, to not be able to identify them frankly blows me away. Having said that, perhaps the geat American Experiment is in its twilight and it will sink not on its rapacity, but on its mediocrity. To see this mediocrity further as a great good will certainly speed up the slide. Here is an interesting take from one of my favourite writers, "Spengler" AKA David P Goldman, associate editor of "First Things" By the way, this journal publishes poetry as well. Not as filler per se, but as part of its brief. Why the West is Boyle'd" We seem to have invested in insubstantial stuff, (including Knowledge) that is pretty much gone in a burst bubble. I think it was Ariel Durant who said that it takes thousands of years to build a civilisation but only a generation to lose it. (paraphrasing) And it was just a few years ago that the Bass family gave several million dollars to Yale for a chair in Western Civilisation, which Yale in its eminent wisdom declined. It was a big story in Dallas for the obvious resons of family connections, but still. A culture that celebrates cutting its own throat is getting seedy to say the least. My probably quite devalued two cents, but hey they are still pretty when polished up. LOL. regards sue | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 11746 Registered: 12-2003 |
I wrote and posted a poem last year based on the mythology of Coronis from the Metamorphoses by Ovid. I didn't get much response to that one, and I posted it at a few different sites. I don't know if it was because some didn't know the reference, or just didn't care for mythology. I don't know, maybe the poem just sucked. I did a lot of research in order to write the poem. Honestly, my memory is so bad I had to search Coronis tonight because I couldn't remember it came from Ovid. If I can't remember where my own poem came from, well, how am I going to remember other mythology that I probably learned at some point in my life, for someone else's poem? From In the Palm of Your Hand by Steve Kowit: The Misuse of Allusions and Mythology: Inexperienced poets love exotic words and Greek gods, imagining that such decorative elements add poetic luster to their writing. If you have nothing that genuinely requires the presence of Minerva or Hermes, do not drag them into your poems. Let those poor old retired gods rest in peace. Maybe I misused the gods??? Just something interesting to ponder. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 2090 Registered: 01-2005 |
Hi Scott, Actually, I tend to go out of my way NOT to use arcane myth in my poetry ...hey, matter of fact is I really don't know much of the "arcane" stuff myself. I posted a poem once back at the Gazebo (what a scary place for a beginner like me about 10 years ago)... Anyway, one person commented that they "hated" poems that used any kind of mythological references. Well...I think, like anything else, there's a time and place for everything. Basically, if it's not in Edith Hamilton's book on mythology, I tend not to even attempt to use a myth. ref. in my poems. I mean even Bullfinch is a bit on a "higher plane" than Hamilton. And in my day, knowing the common myths was expected of all junior high students. Scott, just know that you will lose some readers. What matters is how accessible you wish your poem to me. Personally, if a reader must Google to understand a poem I've written, then I've failed in that particular poem. Best, T. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1635 Registered: 11-2007 |
anyone who cares will look up the 'hard words' and have learned something new. If I encounter a mythological reference I'll be sure to hunt it down--unless the poem is a dud to start with, and then I probably won't bother. If you make the reader care about what you write, they'll take in all the references (often explained further along, by indirection, in the piece itself) and expand their own knowledge base too. I like seeing what people do with mythological references, either directly or indirectly. I think in the right poems it adds an extra dimension. Afraid of the Dark | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Senior Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 2579 Registered: 01-2006 |
Post deleted by author (Message edited by beachdreamer on June 15, 2009) | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1636 Registered: 11-2007 |
Sue, the Durants also said--and showed--how quickly and with a fixed pattern every great culture slides into oblivion. Most dominant cultures last about 2000 years, and the decline, when it starts to be noticed, is rapid and unstoppable. What we are seeing (and maybe this is a privilege, maybe not) is the last mud slide of our own civilization; a decline in the arts, in education, in social structure, in religion. Therese, the first poem I posted at the Gaz at about the same time you did got one response. it was from a highschool kid, and she wanted to know if I was her teacher because I had the same last name. She also went on to say she HATED english. tee hee. Afraid of the Dark |
