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| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6630 Registered: 08-2003 |
Came across this on the web and wanted to share. It's an excerpt from what looks to be a very informative book on publishing. Very long but worth the read. Making Poetry Submissions Chris Hamilton-Emery Sample chapter from: 101 Ways to Make Poems Sell: The Salt Guide to Getting and Staying Published by Chris Hamilton-Emery ISBN 1-84471-116-1 228× 152 mm 9× 6 inches 156pp Published 1 April 2006 £10.99 $16.95 Why do I write? Before considering making a poetry submission to any publisher it is important to consider what you want to contribute to a publishing relationship and precisely what you want to achieve within your writing life. This is certainly not a financial contribution, we’re not talking about vanity presses in these notes, it is a far more important contribution than just money. Understanding your intentions and efforts as a writer will, to a large extent, determine what choices are to be made and provide you with a few opportunities and very many challenges. It might surprise you to discover that being published may not be the best choice for you and your work. There are, of course, as many reasons for writing as there are people on the planet, but understanding your desires (or compulsions) as a writer will help you to think through whether you really want to be published and whether you are prepared to work (often exhaustively) to develop a readership for your writing within a commercial context. Very many people begin to write poetry in their adolescence and many write from experience of trauma, personal loss or as a form of spiritual or emotional growth. Some write from their first experiences of ethical and political conviction. Some from their first reading of a major poet at school; many learn through emulation. All of these are perfectly valid and rewarding pastimes without any form of publication. You may have had a substantial writing life producing poems as an extension of your emotional experience. However, this is not a test for the financial viability of your poems in a published work. The authenticity of your feelings, their depth, novelty and sincerity, are not markers for commercial success. Many publishers will recognise the characteristics of such poetry and flinch from the memory of heart-felt writing, from young and old alike, which fails to stimulate the reader beyond calls for sympathy. Alas, sympathy does not sell books, it sells greeting cards. Emotional excess and the unburdening of strong personal feelings can be a major impetus to writing, but this is rarely the sole basis of a successful poem. Some poets do this well, but the measure of their success lies not in the expression of their personal feelings (or their excess), but in how they have engaged the reader and transcended such conditions with new language. In this way, the commercial publication of poetry demands reciprocity and interaction with a readership. Frequently the reader is a participant in the very process of the poem, active rather than passive. You may be the best reader of your own work, but without someone else, the poem is incomplete, and without a buyer it cannot be published. Many poets and commentators will correctly state that the writer works first for themselves; there is no doubt that this is true. But as soon as you seek to develop a readership beyond your family, friends and colleagues, you will establish for yourself a set of ambiguous responsibilities. Clarifying and articulating these responsibilities will define your writing. If you want people to pay for your poems, to give up their time and effort in order to engage with your work, then one responsibility is commercial. Why should anyone pay money to read you? More importantly, why do you think that they will? It isn’t the publisher’s job to answer such questions, it’s their job to ask them. What does publication mean for my writing? Being published means entering into a partnership with a publisher and commits you to the serious application of your time and talent to finding readers and marketing your work. If you are not primarily interested in helping to sell books, you do not need to approach a publisher, as they almost certainly won’t succeed in making sales on your behalf without your active participation. Of course, there are many ways to find readers, and selling books is just one of them. But for publishers who depend on books sales to fund their businesses and develop their relationships with their customers, it is of major significance. Not every book has to be a bestseller, few, if any, will be, but every book, it is hoped, will make a positive contribution to the publisher’s financial performance or the cohesion and identity of their list. This is the commercial publisher’s risk: that their often considerable investment in money and human resources will pay dividends in profitable book sales. Where poetry is concerned, those rewards may be very meagre indeed. Most volumes of poetry sell under a thousand copies, many sell less than 300, and some do not sell at all, despite the massive efforts of all concerned. You may infer from this that commercial publication bears no real relation to the intrinsic value of your writing. It would be folly to merely seek some form of validation through a publishing relationship. Your work may be highly-prized by the publisher as an asset, but it would be wrong to think of the publisher’s role as primarily one of defining some true value (though they may try very hard to do so for the sake of their profits). The publisher’s primary role is to market and sell books, and to use whatever means are put at their disposal to do so. Good or even great poetry which doesn’t sell will not be of much use to the publisher. At the end of the day, true value is bestowed by a living readership, and publishers need paying customers, here and now, in order to finance their operations. On the other hand, a poet can write rewarding and committed poetry without ever being published in this way, and can, should they wish, self-publish, or indeed find their writing life fulfilled through giving readings and performances in a range of venues and cultural forums. There are many ways to practise poetry, only one of them requires a commercial publisher and that depends on your wish to develop an impersonal readership willing to pay. What are the social conditions of the poet? Poetry is a broad church, and more people write it than read it. Even more people read it than buy it. The market for selling poetry is, in relation to the total book trade, an extremely small one, and it is complex, fragmented, well-managed and highly competitive. Because of this, it is notoriously difficult to coordinate a sustainable economic model for contemporary writing. You will be extremely unlikely to earn a living from selling your poetry. However, you may earn money from a range of cultural projects related to ‘acting’ as a poet, and some writers seek to earn their incomes from running workshops or courses, teaching English or Creative Writing, making festival appearances, giving paid readings, taking on residencies, and becoming cultural commentators and critics. Others may seek grants and bursaries or roles within the media. The range of possible jobs which relate to poetry has in fact become highly professionalised, whilst the task of selling poetry has become more demanding, expensive and sophisticated. Some would say decadent and corrupted. Often the two go hand in hand, selling poetry books depends increasingly on how well the writer is known within a range of often distinct literary communities, some of which may be supported by the public sector and administered by civil servants. Despite the rapid growth of public sector support within the culture industry, the market for poetry has been in decline. Some consider this to be a feature of the current management, some of its critical reception, others consider this as the negative impact of academic study. Given the huge growth in undergraduate numbers since 1990 it would be inaccurate to state that those of us studying literature are not valid as a readership. Many will go on to a lifelong engagement with and commitment to literature. In the main, this is not a failure of any single party, and it is symptomatic of changes in the commercial structure of bookselling in general, and the increasing need for booksellers to generate profits. Poetry is not a mass-market product, even if at times it crosses over into the world of bestsellers. It sells in modest numbers to a highly-informed and often specialised readership. This readership can be extended, and doing so is the problem of poets as much as it is of publishers. Building a reputation as a poet is a vital feature of having any form of commercial life as a writer. Some may baulk at the notion of working in this way on an art form which is traditionally perceived to operate at a high level, dealing with spiritual, social and political realities. However, this is not the case where publishing is concerned. Anything you do as a poet to manage and extend your status as a writer will be of considerable use to the publisher. Indeed, some publishers will invest a great deal of effort in support of managing and publicising your writing persona, in order to achieve more sales and realise their investment in your writing. Constructing perceptions of the writer and, indeed, their celebrity, can be a full-time occupation for some people within a publishing business. Writers are expected to support this process. For very many poets, the navigation of literature officers, workshop managers, festival and venue directors, university lecturers, broadsheet literature editors, critics of all shapes and sizes, small magazine editors, listservs, Web masters, librarians, and perhaps, most troublingly, other poets, can be a demanding daily task. Some poets excel at building such networks of relationships (and their dependencies), others find this repellant and inauthentic behaviour. However, the more experience the poet has of knowing who’s who, of knowing whom to call upon to further their career as a writer, is very often a key to commercial success. Some are combative in their pursuit of this, some are jealous of others’ share of the limelight, whilst others will deconstruct the field and recognise the signs (I almost wrote sins) of patronage and power. Still, no one has ever been plucked from obscurity by a publisher, inexperienced and ignorant of the poetry scene, its operations, its bias, indeed its enmities, hostilities and prize-fixing glamour, and succeeded to achieve marvellous book sales. Knowing the scene (and being known by it) and establishing your relationship to it are as important as scribbling vers libre in the attic, or workshopping quatrains at the weekend writing school. There can be little doubt, that success as a poet involves working within such communities, inside them you will achieve one tier of sales (almost “business to business” in nature), and through them, you may reach a wider, more general and anonymous readership. If you know nothing of these communities, a publisher may still be interested in you, but if you understand these communities well and have gained some expertise in working with them, a publisher will see their risk reduced and the possibility of sales increased. As a commodity, you are suddenly more attractive. Who buys poetry? So far, we’ve made some observations about the circumstances surrounding the business of poetry. We’ve eschewed discussions of poetic value, of how good your writing actually is, to consider whether it will in fact sell and what you will do to help drive those sales. We’ve side-stepped the issue of seeing your work in print – if this was your sole desire, it would be better to spare the publisher’s cash, and the efforts of their staff, and print the book yourself. Before you can write you need to read, and before you can read you need to buy (remember that the public lending right doesn’t feed the publisher’s staff). At this point, let’s consider who actually buys poetry. There are many thousands of poetry publications produced every year around the world (yes, thousands), ranging from the strictly amateur to the corporate window-dressing of publishing conglomerates. Some are given away, some stored under the bed or in the garage, a small percentage are sold direct or even through bookstores. Take a pencil and some paper and write down everyone you know who buys poetry and ask yourself these ten questions: How do they hear about the books? Which places do they buy them from? Do they buy anthologies or single author volumes? Do they buy works from a particular publisher, or from a range of publishers? Do they buy the works of particular authors, or try unfamiliar names? Do they buy contemporary poetry, or the works of historical authors? Do they shop for poetry regularly? How much do you think they spend on poetry each year? How many poetry titles do you think they buy each year? Why do you think that they buy it? Now you have your list, ask yourself the same questions. What can you deduce from this kind of survey? Well, one thing to be aware of, if you believe you are au fait with contemporary poetry, less than 20% of new titles are actually sold in bookshops. Far more titles are sold direct. If this doesn’t match your experience, you’ve missed out on an awful lot of new poetry. Statistically, most poetry sold in bookstores is sold to women, most of that is sold to people over 50 years of age, and most of that sold has been written by dead authors. But there is little research as to where the other 80% of titles is actually being sold. Unless you, and the people you know, are buying poetry there will be no market for selling books. An important lesson to learn in considering making a submission is how committed you are to helping others buy books; furnishing them with your enthusiasm for the art, and convincing them that spending their money on poetry will add value to their lives. Make it your business to increase the size of the market. Without readers, there is no future for publishers, and no room at the inn for you. The more people you encourage to buy poetry, the bigger the potential market for you. Reading all the books you have bought So you have acquired a few thousand new poetry books for your personal library (just kidding), and are wincing at all the money you have had to earn and spend on this stuff, now let’s consider reading it all. Publishers come in all shapes and sizes, some, but not all, are interested in publishing work which significantly extends poetry. Opinion will be hotly divided on exactly how poetry is to be extended. However, most publishers will agree that new poetry should endeavour to be precisely that; new. It is often astonishing how poorly read aspiring poets are, and how many have failed the first hurdle to rise above their idols and pass beyond emulation into the realms of real writing – writing which has its context in the present, here in this very moment, addressing the current state of poetry and its practice and reception in the broad community of the living art. There ought to be a law about this: “Poets are not allowed to submit a new manuscript until they have read two hundred single-author volumes of poetry, published since 1980.” In fact, there ought to be several laws about it: “Poets writing in the manner of the nineteenth-century Romantics are advised to seek publishers from the same era.” So many submissions are too derivative to be worth publishing. We’ve read the originals and don’t need a karaoke version of Heaney, Plath or Larkin. Where poetry is concerned, regurgitation never aids digestion. Perhaps the most frustrating thing for publishers is receiving manuscripts which clearly don’t fit their lists, addressed “To whom it may concern,” or “Dear Editor.” Sending the wrong material to someone you cannot be bothered to discover the name of and expecting some response other than the bin would be testing providence in the best of circumstances. Find out about the publishers you are wishing to submit to, learn about their editors, buy their books, read their poets, and discover for yourself whether your writing might be of interest to the publisher. Never let your abstract desire to be published rush ahead of the desire to consume other people’s poetry. Being a reader is, in fact, far more important than being a writer. Remember to read beyond your own prejudices, the aspiring poet should read everything. Okay, not everything, just everything I publish. Becoming a player The world of poetry is not a world of isolated individual practitioners. Hermits in their caves. If you currently find yourself in this position, you should try to get out more. The world of poetry is a very busy place, filled with a wide range of professionals most of whom are eager to tell you about their talents. The world of poetry is not filled with gentle suffering creatures (to call upon Eliot). It is not fair, just, or particularly caring. It can be supportive, but it is not a self help group. It is not a world based upon power sharing. In fact, the world of poetry can be a bear pit, and like any industry it is competitive and has moments of confrontation and even dirty tricks. Be prepared to take some knocks along the way. The most frequent knocks will be rejection. Many poets could paper a bedroom with their rejection slips. You’ll receive your fair share of these, too. The source of these will be the magazines you are going to successfully submit to before sending a collection to a publisher. Spend time getting your poems printed in magazines large and small. Focus on magazines (print and Web) which really matter. Spend a lot of time working out which ones are the best. You’ll know that from the contents as much as by the list of poets printed in the contributor notes. Building a pedigree as a writer is vitally important, and it will help a publisher to contextualise your work, and even to discover it. Search out magazines, subscribe to them and support them – they are the scouts and trackers of the poetry world, discovering and often nurturing new talent. Another important feature of succeeding as a poet is to write reviews. Engaging with other work and actively reviewing it is a great way to build your own experience of poetry, its cause and effect, and you won’t want to waste your time reviewing material you don’t engage with – even if that engagement is intense dislike. Set your sights high. Aim to be a feature writer for The Guardian, The Boston Review, or The Age. No point spending your expensive time writing reviews for venues with no readership. You may not be successful in placing reviews and finding a sympathetic literary editor, but there’s no harm in testing your mettle in the best forums. Above all ensure your work and where it appears builds your credibility as an expert. Glorious amateurs aren’t required. A side-effect of such endeavours is that the poetry you believe matters will eventually be given air space. Many poets continue to write reviews and serious criticism for precisely this reason; maintaining their position as experts and defending the poetry they want to succeed. They are building ramparts around the castle. If you don’t like what’s on offer, you’ll need some siege equipment and a tactical plan of action. 50 dos and don’ts That’s enough background. Let’s take a look at the dos and don’ts of preparing a submission: First off, read submissions guidelines carefully. Many publishers don’t currently take submissions, and find their poets from out in those literary communities you’re going to spend your time discovering and playing a part in. Don’t ask for feedback on your poems. It’s not the publisher’s job to act as your advisor. Don’t write to ask for submission guidelines. Check the publishers Web site for details. If you haven’t access to the Web, go to an internet café. Do check whether a publisher is currently accepting submissions, Web sites often give detailed information. Make yourself a player. A mover and shaker. If you are out there participating in literature, publishers will notice you. Keep submission letters brief. Editors are ferociously busy people. Spend time planning what message you want to get across, and take time to ensure you’ve got it down in writing, clearly and concisely. Be completely familiar with the publisher’s list. If you haven't bought any of their books, why should they bother to publish you? And don’t get caught out pretending. At the same time as planning a submission, prepare a marketing plan for how you will personally promote your book. That’s for the publisher when you get accepted. Make sure you include your magazine publishing history, citing where and when your poems have appeared. Find out the name of the person you are submitting to. Find out what they like. Find out where they live. Follow them to work. Alright, just kidding, but find out their name. Don’t threaten the editor, or be overly familiar. Don’t set deadlines for responses. Avoid the common pitfall of purchasing a book as a form of making a submission. Editors can be bought, but only for six figure sums involving a contract of employment. Avoid portentous, weighty titles: “The Succulent Dark of My Fading Time,” “Dread Fires of The Iron Soul,” & Co. are sure to raise the hackles of every editor. Don’t spend time explaining why your work is important. Don’t justify your work through a negative reading of contemporary poetry. “All this modern poetry is just rubbish; please find enclosed my 20,000 line Life of Hephaestus written in Alexandrines.” Do check your spelling. Especially the words you think you know how to spell. Do take care with punctuation, and take special care with apostrophes. Echoing Raymond Carver, “No cheap tricks.” Avoid sending poems on the death of your cat, mother or Biology teacher. Or how crap your life is. Or about bee-keeping. Beware of sending poems which contain wild metaphor, clever descriptions of everyday phenomena, and make novel use of dialect and idioms, all ending with a stunning epiphany. It’s a tired old template now. Descriptive writing can be very dull. Poems on the wondrous nature of God’s creation aren’t. Manuscripts containing helpful marginal notes about what you are meaning at this point, or how to typeset the stanza or line are profoundly annoying. Avoid hyperbole, cliché, saturated adjectives, and extended simile. High-powered writing is never weakened by such features. Precision is everything in writing, even being precisely vague. Learn the rules in order to break them. Do break the rules. We are all so bored of the rules, especially the ones taught to you on writing retreats. An aside, if someone talks to you about finding your “voice,” they’re trying to sell you snake oil. Do not centre on the page everything you write. Do not set the whole manuscript in italics. Do avoid fads, like workshop poems in strict forms – sonnets, villanelles and sestinas can be truly marvellous, but writing exercises rarely make for saleable goods. Do not put © Copyright Denise Cuthbert 2005 on the bottom of every page. No one, especially the editor of a publishing house, is going to abuse the rights to your poems. Do send an envelope big enough to use to send your manuscript back to you. Do supply full postage or international reply coupons. Do not set the manuscript in 18 point bold Helvetica. Choose a font that looks like a book typeface in the appropriate size and weight. So many people write on 8.5 × 11.5 inch or A4 paper that they forget that most trade books are around 5.5 × 8.5 inch or 216 × 140mm in format – be aware of the likely size of the printed page. Don’t ask for a receipt for your manuscript. Don’t ring up chasing progress the week following your submission. Be patient. Publishers accepting manuscripts may receive several hundred per week. Even working 12 hour days no editor can keep pace with the deluge of submissions. If rejected don’t waste time demanding to know why. Dust yourself down and move on. Do mention if you have been recommended by another poet from the list. Don’t name drop unless the names explicitly bear upon the nature of the submission. Don’t waste time sending expensive bound volumes of your work. Do send a sample of six to ten poems. Do send some brief endorsements or review quotes; but not those from your mother or English tutor. Don’t handwrite your letter to the editor. Don’t handwrite the poems. Don’t include your photograph – especially the moody one with the Fedora. Do spend time researching and planning your submission. Choose the best poems to suit the publisher’s list. Don’t let a friend or family member submit on your behalf. They’re your poems, have the conviction to make their case. Do tell the publisher why you think the poems will suit their list. Finally, don’t give up hope. If you believe in your writing, keep on reading and developing your skills. Keep on building your profile. Spread your enthusiasm. © Chris Hamilton-Emery, 2005 Sample chapter from: 101 Ways to Make Poems Sell: The Salt Guide to Getting and Staying Published by Chris Hamilton-Emery ISBN 1-84471-116-1 228× 152 mm 9× 6 inches 156pp Published 1 April 2006 £10.99 $16.95 Author photo © John Wilkinson, New York 2003 Chris Hamilton-Emery was born in Manchester in 1963 and studied painting and printmaking in Leeds. He is Publishing Director of Salt in Cambridge, England. Writing as Chris Emery, his work has appeared in numerous journals including The Age, Jacket, Parataxis, Poetry Review, Poetry Wales, PN Review, Quid and The Rialto. A first full-length collection, Dr. Mephisto, was published by Arc in 2002. A pamphlet, The Cutting Room, was published by Barque in 2000. He was anthologised in New Writing 8 (Vintage, 1999). A new collection of poetry, Radio Nostalgia, is available now from Arc. He lives in Great Wilbraham with his wife, three children and various other animals. (Message edited by emusing on October 23, 2008) Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4219 Registered: 10-2005 |
e- I read this excerpt end to end and enjoyed it thoroughly. I liked the part about finding a way to be involved in the literary world, and this: "Make it your business to increase the size of the market. Without readers, there is no future for publishers, and no room at the inn for you. The more people you encourage to buy poetry, the bigger the potential market for you." Thanks for posting it here. -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31814 Registered: 11-1998 |
Bravo to Chris for this one, E. And many, many thanks to you for posting it. I just met a woman a couple of weeks ago who has a two-book contract with Salt. She's an English teacher and completely committed to literature. She's almost always out on the road doing promotion. I can't imagine her schedule is anything but exhausting. I'm onboard with nearly 100% of what Chris says here. But this is particularly near and dear to my heart: "It is often astonishing how poorly read aspiring poets are" Bingo. It's probably one of the greatest weaknesses. Love, M | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6631 Registered: 08-2003 |
Hi Laz, Yes Chris does not hold back on being a pro-active poet. It may seem unpleasant to some to consider the marketing side of creativity but most successful artists know, a lot has to do with how the artist involves himself in the dissemination of his and other's work. I find his assessment of the poetry community to be rather bleak--I have discovered a number of poets to be very giving of their time and energy. Of course there are the takers too but that's part of life. I’m glad you found this excerpt compelling. I did too. It took my interest and despite it's length I discovered much to agree with. Loved the 50 item check list. Rather brutal but sometimes it takes a wake up call for poets to know what goes on from the editor’s chair. M, I thought you would appreciate this. I know he brings up a number of points that your recent posts have highlighted. His recommendation to read a minimum of 200 books post 1990 before submitting was quite a shocker. I don’t know if he was being cheeky at that point. However, I do feel that the ratio should be much higher than it is. A entire book of poems for every one poem written perhaps. There’s the bubble of the poet who writes and thinks his work is ready for prime time and then the reality of submission and acceptance or rejection. Recently someone asked for my help with their writing and the submission process. I told them about Duotrope and said that I’d be happy to offer any help on their work. When I asked what poets they’d read or were reading, they said that they really weren’t interested in other people’s work. I find it difficult to help someone who won’t make the effort to find out what’s out there. I thought his assessment was quiet honest and for those like me who have been more or less glib on the subject—a necessary straightwire to the truth. Love, e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4220 Registered: 10-2005 |
I didn't see the entertainment value of poetry until my experience at the Dodge poetry festival. I always thought of reading poetry on quiet days with a cup of tea. I wonder what the marketing value of poems would be if poetry was more accessible, like commercial breaks or songs on the radio. The world would need a lot more good poems if there was more of a demand. We just need to show people that poetry can be fun! -Laz | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 170 Registered: 12-2006 |
"Alas, sympathy does not sell books, it sells greeting cards." Oh, cripes, but I'm adding that to my list of all-time favorite writing quotes! I'm looking this book up. Thanks, E! | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6643 Registered: 08-2003 |
Laz yeah I think when we as poets learn what a large embracing community it is it is like moving to a country where everyone speaks your language. I know I had that experience when I went to Mexico a couple of years ago for a workshop. I think there are so many markets for poetry depending on age, culture, belief system, sky is not the limit. Jessica glad this was helpful to you. It's a good one to bring us into the realities of balancing emotion with what the reader or editor finds compelling. e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31841 Registered: 11-1998 |
Ah, E, if it was up to me, I'd take the pens and pencils out of people's hands until they could prove to me they'd read so many more contemporary poetry books than that. But I don't guess they're going to let me pass that little piece of legislation, are they? *LOL* As to that person who asked for your assistance and then said he was not interested in reading other people's work, I'd just tell him I have exact same policy. Well, he's an "other person," isn't he? Why would you wanna read his? *LMAO* Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4705 Registered: 05-2006 |
I particularly like the suggestion to use the poem as a rolling paper for a giant joint, with a note attached saying "This poem is smokin'." | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 187 Registered: 12-2006 |
I don't think the books should only be contemporary. Call me crazy, but I still think Shakespeare and Dickins have something to offer. Hell, if we went with his recommendation, nobody would read Ginsberg, or Plath, or Hughes--only the MFA back-scratch circle being published today. What's wrong with reading poetry that's survived the test of time, as long as you use the technique, but not the voice? (Hold the brush like Michelangelo, but paint your own stinkin' ceiling with your own stinkin' strokes). Yes, we need to know what's going on in our world today, and we need to support the art we all adore. But, you become a master by studying the masters and finding your own medium and mode--not by studying the students and copying theirs. | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4230 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jess- I've had a similar thought along those lines today. I know I've read, and heard recently, that new poets tend to get stuck for years copying the poets that they look up to the most. So I'm wondering if this is a necessary step? I'm leaning in that direction since it is so prevalent in all the arts. -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31848 Registered: 11-1998 |
I don't think anyone's saying that you shouldn't read and study the masters, Jessica. They are taught in the schools and most people who study the craft of writing are exposed to them often and in great amounts. I think Chris is (and I know I am) concerned that people are only reading the classics, and then believe those styles and techniques are what poetry is all about. Unfortunately, the schools don't have as much time and money to devote to teaching contemporary poetry. Yes, a solid foundation in the masters is essential, but that's only part of it. A poet has just as much responsibility to study his contemporaries to learn what poetry is now. I can't tell you how many poems I see that are stuck in the style and diction of poets long dead. While there may still be a small market for poems of that type, there are not many contemporary editors who accept these old styles nor readers who read them. Contemporary poets who are publishing now are great teachers as well. By studying them, you will learn what direction poetry is taking in your own time, and you will be better able to write poetry that captures your own age and pushes the art forward into the future. Neither subgroup -- masters or contemporaries -- should be favored over the other since poets need to be well-rounded in their studies of this art. Love, M P.S. It is not only the "MFA back-scratch circle" who are publishing today. I see just as many self-taught, unlettered poets being published as I do those who have formal degrees. However, I wouldn't disparage formal degrees. Would you want a surgeon operating on you who had spent no time in medical school? A plumber working on your pipes who had no license? Would you feel completely confident in their reassurances of "Trust me -- I read a book on this once, so I know what I'm doing"? Very few geniuses are born into any discipline. Most of us have to learn it the hard way. Education is critical, Jessica, in every area and every pursuit. Writing is no different. And no, I don't have a problem with informal study. Just so long as people are educating themselves in some way and make it a lifelong objective, I'm fine with that. | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6645 Registered: 08-2003 |
Yeah M--how about that quip, if you want to write poems from the 19th century, find yourself a 19th century publisher. I guess that lays it on the line pretty straight. Fred, I think their referring to the dangerous combination of an editor and a book of matches. Jessica I agree with you entirely. Most of my favorite poets were born before the 20th century. Reading some or all of the greats is Poetry 101. I think in this specific instance Chris is speaking to the the submission of manuscripts for publication. While he acknowledges that poets read their predecessors he puts that in a contemporary context. “It is often astonishing how poorly read aspiring poets are, and how many have failed the first hurdle to rise above their idols and pass beyond emulation into the realms of real writing – writing which has its context in the present, here in this very moment, addressing the current state of poetry and its practice and reception in the broad community of the living art.” I would say that a poet’s work will be that much richer having read the classics but it it somewhat unrealistic to enter the realm of modern day poetry publications without having knowledge of what the contemporary poem looks like. Any contemporary poet who’s worth their grain will tell you to read all the great poetry you can get your hands on from Sappho to Simic but it takes that extra stretch into the present to be cognizant of the modern day aesthetic. Poet Fleda Brown said in an interview, when I really want to see what “real” poetry can do, I read Rilke. I will forever continue to harvest Rilke and other personal icons on the trail but I think a poet does himself or herself a disservice by excluding contemporary poetry from their life. Until recently I thumbed my nose at much of contemporary literature even the recognized “greats” of our time. I felt many of them fell short of their predecessors. What I realized in part is that some of this has to do with subject matter itself. Many of the poets of the past have taken on the larger issues. I read a great deal of modern poetry that is mired down (for me) in the inane or mundane happenings of life and so was turned off by it. More recently I realized that (a) there are poets who are speaking to the larger issues and (b) those that aren’t are still valuable for if not the subject than the ways in which they might express those thoughts and what their personal “voice” has to say. This is a matter of personal taste but it’s also another reason for embracing the contemporary. This view has broadened my appreciation of all poetry. e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4232 Registered: 10-2005 |
e- You found the quote I was looking for! Thanks. This is a good point: "I read a great deal of modern poetry that is mired down (for me) in the inane or mundane happenings of life and so was turned off by it." It is a turnoff to read yet another poem dissecting the simplest of emotions or experiences looking for nuance and appearing, for all I can see, afraid to really say anything of importance. -Laz | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6646 Registered: 08-2003 |
Laz agreed and it is a fine (and perhaps more uncommon) poet who can take that simplest of experience and turn it into something really memorable. (Message edited by emusing on October 26, 2008) Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 188 Registered: 12-2006 |
Nowhere did I say not to read or support modern poets. In fact, I said we SHOULD. I simply took acception to the notion that only if you've read 200 books by single authors after 1980 should you write poetry. It just seemed very dismissive of the classics, as if they'll give you a disease. Oh, woe! I read Keats, and now mine pronouns are all thous and thees! Whatever shall I do that inverted grammar I may hope to escape?? What about reading literary magazines and anthologies? Do they not count? Or, are there simply too many good poets in them, lurking unfairly without a chapbook to their name? As to the MFA issue, I'm all for education, but I don't think every MFA program is doing its graduates any favors other than teaching them how to publish, (as opposed to how to write), and how to keep the publishing business insularly self-supporting. Thank the muses (or should I say the ~M~'s?) for zines and magazines that don't play that game! There are some excellent programs, I'm sure, as proven by some of the AWESOME poets with three letters in their bios. But, I sometimes wonder, if you threw those poets together in a tenament in Greenwich Village, or a block of San Fransisco, and gave them beans, paper, and ink enough to last a few years, would we have new schools of poetry instead of new Colleges of Poetry? Poetry is not surgery. If your hand doesn't know its business, nobody dies or loses an ear--you simply don't get published outside of vanity presses. And, some people *cough cough me* choose to study things other than Poetry for very valid reasons. I figured if I'm a chemist, I'll never have to sell out my art in order to eat. Plus, I'd hopefully be able to support the art I love financially AND infect traditionally non-literary circles with poetry. It's FAR PAST TIME that poetry move past these days where the vast majority of people buying poetry are poets. Rules like "no poets earlier than 1980 without at least a chapbook to their name will count as a proper beginner's course to poetry" tend to scare off people already enthused about the art, much less those tepid towards it. | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 6647 Registered: 08-2003 |
To MFA or not to MFA that is always the question. There are many reasons for and against. I've spoken with poets who said the program allowed them a kind of discipline they would never have had otherwise. If I ever decided to pursue it, that would be a primary reason. On the other side, I know of poets (and one in particular) who said she lost her voice and couldn't write for 2 years after gradulating. Some of the powers that be have their own agenda about the requirements and expectations of a "modern day" poet which has less to do with cultivating the poet's personal voice than it has to do with forwarding a type of dogma which is common in all the arts. Dance has it's demons too--just ask my sister who is a modern choreographer and how her an insructor tried to stamp out any romantic influences she might have in favor of post-modern. I took Chris's article as a way of expanding my viewpoint on the publishing process, not as the last word on the poetry world. I felt much of what he said enlightening and informative. I saw his comments in part as tongue in cheek and indicative of his cultural tone and influence. No one said anyone need subscribe to what he says but if one finds something that helps to advance their own thinking, I say take and move on. I tend to be a bit of a scavenger when it comes to advice. There's no one person with all the right answers but everyone has something valid to say whether we choose to agree, or not. e Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 189 Registered: 12-2006 |
Don't get me wrong, e. I loved the article, and I think it was dead right on a lot of things. That one quote is going in my file of all-time faves. And, I really do believe in reading contemporary poets, despite what my arguments might suggest if not read as intended. I'm up to my eyeballs in debt, yet I still subscribe to journals & mags, and buy books whenever I can find any worth reading. (The whole get a science degree to make money plan will only work when my hubby gets stationed somewhere I can be a scientist.) Thinking of buying books, ~M~, did you ever get my email re: the WPF bookstore? And, btw, E, HOW LONG did it take you to type this for us, you super sharer, you? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31849 Registered: 11-1998 |
We seem to have hit a sore point with you, Jessica, and I'm sorry for that. As E said, there is no one right way, no one right answer. However, as a former teacher, you are never going to convince me that there is no place for formal postgraduate education nor that MFA programs aren't doing their students a service in teaching them how to publish (among other things, which do include how to write). Poetry is not surgery? No, but it is equal to it as a discipline. Being able to hold a pen in my hand makes me no more able to write than holding a scalpel makes me able to operate. I only have a problem when people (not you, other people) believe that it does. I appreciate what E had to say about formal programs -- that they work for some people and for others, they seemed to do them a disservice. However, this may be more due to the particular program, and its instructors, than to the entire MFA program in this country in general. I cannot speak to any particular MFA program because I do not have an MFA. But I do have a BA in literature. And I can say that without it, I wouldn't be nearly where I am today (wherever that is) in my writing career or my understanding of this discipline as an art. And I would welcome an opportunity to participate in an MFA program if I were not so old and ill. I would be careful about throwing the baby out with the bath water. No, not every formally trained poet is excellent and no, not every poet who comes from the barrios and tenements is illiterate or unschooled. But I do believe that your view that the publishing business is mainly insularly self-supporting is unfair. If there is some something (and there are many sources) to blame for the general public's disregard for poetry, I would also look toward an education system that puts mainly dead poets into their hands whose diction they cannot understand nor relate to (too many people I've spoken to say they were turned off by "poetry" in high school when they were forced to study Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare and any other dead poet people name), not to mention a country whose financial support of the arts is seriously lacking. Perhaps if we paid serious dollars for great teachers to also put an Olds, Kirby, Collins, Laux, Lux, Clifton, Oliver, or some other contemporary voice in their hands as far back as high school, they'd actually find they like poetry enough to buy it, read it, and support it well into their adult years. And then to go back and give even the old masters another try. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31850 Registered: 11-1998 |
No, Jessica, I'm afraid I did not get an e-mail from you regarding the WPF BookShop. I normally respond to every e-mail I receive. When did you send it? Recently? Please do re-send it, and I will respond to it as soon as I am able. Love, M | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 190 Registered: 12-2006 |
~M~, it's not really a sore point, so much as a worry point. I worry that I, and some of my peers, will never be let into the realm, because we haven't kept our copious readings squeezed into the narrowest historical stretch... We dared to eat a peach. Also, I did write: "There are some excellent programs, I'm sure, as proven by some of the AWESOME poets with three letters in their bios." Suggesting that talent might be part of the success isn't tossing babies with bathwater. Harvard and Yale wouldn't produce the best lawyers if they didn't get the best students -- it's the same with better MFA programs. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31851 Registered: 11-1998 |
Trust me on this one thing, Jessica. You and any of your peers will never be kept outside the "realm" forever due to a lack of letters after your name. Most editors I know (myself included) don't look for those letters as the entry key (though it would appear from most contributor bios that we do). A good many magazines (Stirring being one of them) and a great majority of legitimate contests have editors/judges who assess "blind" submissions, i.e., submissions only distributed to us after any identifying information about the author (name, education, prior publishing credits, etc.) has been stripped away. When I, and many of my peers, review submissions, we are only looking at the work itself. If the work is great, Jessica, it will be recognized eventually by some editor or publisher somewhere, regardless of the author's track record, and his/her personal reading preferences and education. Honestly, most editors I know who are worth their salt are absolutely thrilled to discover "new" talent, great writing. It's the main reason we do this job. When we find a treasure in a batch of poetry submissions, we celebrate. We don't stop to make sure it came from an MFA. The sad truth is, though, that many MFAs do outwrite their less-trained or less-well-read counterparts. I would assume this applies to most other disciplines as well. Many people would like to blame the publishing industry for their unpublished woes. However, if you dig beneath the surface, for a great many, their writing is simply subpar or not to the taste of those editors/publishers they are pursuing. It's a great big publishing world out there with as many tastes as there are writers to write to them. Target your work properly and outwrite the vast majority who have also targetted that mag/publisher, and you will eventually succeed. Most journals have only a few slots each month to fill, and receive hundreds, if not thousands, of submissions. The same is true of book and chapbook publishers. We have to turn away many and we would love to accommodate more if only we had more money and more space. You are competing against a huge number of other equally talented players. You have to be at the top of your game. So, do dare to eat a peach, Jessica. Better yet, write one. Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4713 Registered: 05-2006 |
I am going to chime in here with, as usual, the oblique comment. The changes in Western Culture over approximately the last 100 years have been larger than at any other time in history A hundred years ago, electric lighting was the new kid on the technical block. The automobile was just getting on the roads of America. Radios were emerging from the Marconi phase. Einstein was formulating his first postulates of Relativity, making it possible for later generations to create atomic and hydogen bombs (ugh). Television was yet to be invented. The airplane was bounding down the fields of Kitty Hawk. The transistor was half a century away. Only mathematicians were imagining the computer. There was no email, no internet. Records were still Edison cylinders. World War I and World War II had yet to be fought. The Titanic had not yet sunk. The Nineteenth Amendment had not yet given women the right to vote. Today, the academic system, inherently conservative, is chugging along, failing to teach kids HUGE amounts of modern culture, while boring kids as never before kids have been bored with a vast sea of knowledge that in day-to-day life is utterly useless. I'm surprised they don't require kids to learn how to ride horses, do canning in Mason jars, and operate oil lamps, out of some compulsive attachment to the generations which have gone before. What good does the average student gain from reading Alexander Pope? Or Dryden? -- at the expense of Norman Mailer and Annie Proulx. What possible value can learning determinants offer the average student? Often, courses in schools are taught using a chronological model, so that the students study ancient this and ancient that, and get to the modern stuff only if there's time left at the tail end of the semester -- which there usually isn't. Where does a kid learn how to balance a modern checkbook whether hardcopy or online? Where does the kid learn how to do the due diligence around buying a modern car? -- around renting a modern apartment? -- around finding a good modern doctor? -- around securing a good job? -- around utilizing the internet as thoroughly as possible? Where is a kid taught (independent of political views) HOW to vote? Where does a kid learn how to budget money? That same kid is, however, expected to explain the difference between Antietam and Appomattox. As a result of all this, the modern kid must pick up all the stuff you really need to know to get on in this world around the school system. So yes, we do need to know something of history and of the historical culture, but since we are living now, and not then, why not teach the kids the vast array of knowledge that you need right now to live an effective life? Fred | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 10250 Registered: 07-2002 |
Just adding my 2 cent's worth, not to the poetry issue but to let you know, Fred, that we actually *do* can in mason jars in our family. My kids help me put up apple sauce, peaches, and tomato sauce.  Not an arcane, irrelevant skill, but one that nets us good stuff to eat through the winter. Not that I expect them to learn it at school. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4714 Registered: 05-2006 |
I knew it! Just when I thought all the dancers were off the stage, Lisa comes running in, doing the can-can! * * * * * Lisa, even as I wrote that I thought to myself: "Self, I bet there are some people here who still do canning, folks that live away from the big city, in some rural or semi-rural area, where each year you go out into the fields and prune the horses and at dusk, when the wolves begin to hunt, you herd the apple trees into the corral." Would you believe . . . I grew up in such a place, a little town east of Chula Vista, California, called Bonita. A place of small farms, and ranches with buffaloes and mammoths. Now it's shopping malls and houses in foreclosure as far as the eye can see. Fred | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 10251 Registered: 07-2002 |
ROFL, Fred. Yup--this small rural village of Boston. Actually, I didn't grow up doing any of the crazy homesteading type of stuff I do today--can, make all our own bread, etc. My mom is convinced I'm from another planet. Hmm. On second thought, she may be right. ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31859 Registered: 11-1998 |
So, that's what that flyer "Do the Can-Can in Your Own Home Mason Jar" was all about??? Damn! If I'd known it was selling a class about putting up peaches, and not putting up your skirts at the Folies Bergère, I wouldn't have thrown it away. See? Higher education. You need to take advantage of every opportunity. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4233 Registered: 10-2005 |
On the modern verses pre-modern poets what comes up for me is where do you draw the line? When I graduated college in 1980 I don't think most of the names on M's list were widely known. We had Ginsberg, Bob Dylan (yes I remeber mimeographed copies of hie lyrics being handed around in High school) I think Cluck, Plath was known for her book and suicide, ee cummings for his quirky formats. I'll admit I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention to who was big in poetry, but there wasn't much reason to, it just wasn't widely available. Contrast that with the last 10 years and you have a whole new infrastructure to consider. No one can claim ignorance of current mainstream or fringe poetry anymore. It's there for the viewing at one click. So my point is the world is changing as we speak, and some people are adapting and making it work for them and some are not. Many of the ones who do will find their own way through the maze and none of us can predict what roads will get us there until it happens. -Laz | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4234 Registered: 10-2005 |
Oh, and I forgot to mention, I have a 12 Qt canning pressure cooker up for auction at eBay if anyone is interested in following Lisa's example. There is also a case of mason jars for cheap, and I have a $2 discount for anyone who takes them both. -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31860 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laz -- most of these are first books, but not first appearances on the writing scene by these authors: Sharon Olds -- Satan Says (1980) David Kirby -- Saving the Young Men of Vienna (1987) Billy Collins -- Pokerface (1977) Dorianne Laux -- Awake (1990) Thomas Lux -- Memory's Handgrenade (1972) Lucille Clifton -- Good Times (1969) Mary Oliver -- No Voyage, and Other Poems (1963) But you're right, contemporary poetry and poets were not widely known outside academia back when we were in high school. And I could/should have named Plath, Glück, Adrienne Rich, Jane Kenyon, Tess Gallagher, and a whole host of others. I tried to choose accessible ones, those even the general public and those who know nothing about poetry (or who believe they don't like it) might enjoy. The line is a little fluid as it pertains to "contemporary." Some count contemporary as those practicing from the latter half of the 20th century forward, some include the entire 20th century to present times. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4236 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dear M~ Wow you are very fast! I wonder if I read the earliest poems by Oliver, Collins and Clifton I would feel like I was reading from my own time. It's odd how poetry changes with different perspectives, like refracting light in a prism. (When I read Ginsberg it feels terribly outdated) I think I will look up some of the poems in the books from your list and find out for myself what they were writing back then. Thanks for providing this new side bar study in "the line" as we perceive it to be. -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31861 Registered: 11-1998 |
You're most welcome, Laz. I hope you find some new(old) poetry to enjoy and that you have fun analyzing whether you believe them to be dated now. And fun studying how their work has changed (or not) over the years when you compare it to their more recent work. As to my speed, they kinda pay me to know these things. *LOL* (and no, I don't actually get paid) Love, M | ||
| Jessica AC Snyder
Valued Member Username: enigmatica Post Number: 199 Registered: 12-2006 |
"Many people would like to blame the publishing industry for their unpublished woes. However, if you dig beneath the surface, for a great many, their writing is simply subpar or not to the taste of those editors/publishers they are pursuing." With the exceptions of my ill-advised submission to poetry.com when I was in High School, and one (also far to early and ill-advised) send-off to Poetry seven or eight years ago, I haven't submitted poetry for publication, M. So, my comments aren't sour grapes. I'm not fool enough to think that my work will spontaneously appear in journals if I've never tried to get it published. It may be that my work is too "sub-par" to publish in some journals. When I gather up my pluck, I'll stick to the pubs who are interested in art above name. The ones with editors who, like you, truly delight when they find a great poem in their stack, not the sub-par poem of a great poet. (Even Collins has his blah poems.) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 31896 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Jessica -- I wasn't speaking to anyone in particular with my comment, and I certainly was not speaking of you. I'm so sorry if it came across that way. I've been at this poetry thing a very long time -- writing for over 30 years, editing at an online mag and running a workshop for a decade. Unfortunately, I have run into many, many people who don't understand how the publishing industry works, and who are too young and/or too sensitive to understand rejections are often not personal. And also some who are too blind to their own inadequacies in their writing. It takes a lot of guts and experience to make an unbiased assessment of your own talent. To know who you are, where you fit, who your competition is, and also, what you are currently not ready for (in fact, may never be ready for). I include myself in this. I'm a half-decent poet and my work is welcomed in some venues. However, there are others, like Poetry magazine, for instance (not connected in any way with the frauds at poetry.com), where I will most likely never be welcome. I know where my work stands, and probably more importantly, where it could never stand. This is just honest assessment, and it makes my publishing attempts that much more successful. I don't target mags where my work is either inappropriate or subpar. Believe me -- I don't need even more rejections than I already have. I wish you nothing but success when you do gather up that pluck. Just remember to study the journals in which you'd like to appear, honestly assess yourself and your competition, and then just go for it. Yes, even the greats write a stink bomb now and again. If you keep working at it, Jessica, you will find your place. Just know that a realistic ego (neither under- nor over-inflated) is your best ally. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1297 Registered: 11-2007 |
(sigh) (Message edited by judyt54 on October 31, 2008) Afraid of the Dark |
