| Author | Message | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 1001 Registered: 01-2005 |
I was fortunate to have a mentor who wrote much better than I --for 3 years. He was brutal and I owe him a debt of gratitude for improving my work. Okay, he used to tell me that the most important parts of a poem in this order are: 1. title 2. last line 3. first line Any thoughts on this? Personally, I'm very weak with titles...and used to tell folks that I could put hundreds of titles in a hat for any given poem and draw one out...that titles weren't THAT important. What I notice, though, is that catchy titles DO get read first when I'm reading a journal. Last line I agree with. Crucial. First line not so much --many times I'll write a "set-up" line and then find out I remove it when the poem is near completion. p.s. I haven't been online much due to computer problems...but should be fixed soon ~Teresa | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1792 Registered: 04-2007 |
Hi Teresa, I think it's all important. If you have a great title and the poem sucks then all you have is a great title, if you have a great first line and the next couple of lines suck then, all you have is a great first line and the last line is lost. if you have a great last line and a lousy title and first lines, who'll read the poem? Sometimes the title and the first line and the last line work the body works, everything seems right, and the poem can still fail. Weird isn't it? This poetry writing is a giant pain. When I write, I never know what my poem is about until I finish it. so, the title usually comes last. In some ways my title is actually the last line of the poem. How strange to begin at the end. Great topic, dear Teresa. Thanks. love, brenda | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29933 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Teresa -- interesting question, so I thank you for posting it. Speaking personally, I'd have to agree with the order your mentor outlined. When I receive batches of submissions to review, I'm always attracted first by the titles. I'm more interested in reading a poem with an evocative title. That doesn't necessarily mean that a title has to be long and/or convoluted. A one word title -- oh, I don't know, something like Salt, for instance -- can be just as tempting. Last lines are critical. If they are a disappointment for whatever reason, they can spoil the whole poem for me no matter how strong the preceding lines have been. It's like getting to the end of a great book or movie and then being given an ending that doesn't satisfy. I often wonder why I wasted my time reading or watching the whole thing. To be left dissatisfied sticks in the mind and effects everything. If the meal leaves a sour taste in your mouth, that's probably what you will remember rather than the sweet filling in the middle. First lines are extremely important. They are the hook that draws me into reading the rest. Though I'm more apt to forgive a flat first line if the rest, especially the last line, is exemplary. I don't mind a first line that merely functions as a set-up. But plopping me right into the action with a first line is preferred and appreciated. Like novels, reading a first line that seems to be a continuation of the action, rather than a prelude, makes me want to know more about what comes after and encourages me to imagine what came before. I also agree with what brendita said. If the rest of the poem is a bomb, titles, first lines, and last lines won't save it. But it's often a matter of how things work together, rather than how individual lines work separately, that determines the success or failure of a piece. I'll forgive a lot, a flat line or two, if the whole is a tremendous statement. As I said, about the only thing I won't forgive is a dud of a last line. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and has me walking away, shaking my head. And often has me begging the author to please write a final line that is worthy of the rest. Final lines that are summations of a message are probably the worst. I feel as if the author doesn't trust me to get the impact or meaning of the poem. I want to be honored by a last line that leaves me pondering about the subject, especially if that ending makes me think about the topic in a new way. I call it the "ahhhhhh," ending. If you read the poem to an audience, and they murmur, "Ahhhhhhh" after the reading is complete, I believe then you've got a wonderful creation in your hands. Thanks for this opportunity to discuss this subject. Of course, everything I've outlined are my own personal feelings. I'm sure others feel differently about the topic. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1177 Registered: 11-2007 |
One of the first poems I ever posted online to be critiqued was unfortunately called "Buddies". It sounded for all the world like it should be a poem about his boy and his dog, and the only person who even commented or looked at it was a girl who said, "Are you my English teacher, mrs. Thompson? I HATE english, teehee". I changed the title soon after. Titles can make or break some poems, or they can sit there and not matter very much. sometimes I have the Title when I start, sometimes I have it built into the poem, and sometimes I call it "Untitled". First lines, yes. without that, who will read. many mag. editors say they only read the first line. If that doesnt grab them, back it comes. And without that last line, it may get read once, but probably not again. The other thing I think important is not to have too many good lines banging up against each other. I dont know who said it, but the idea was, if you have a great line and a terrific thought that goes with it, don't pile another great line on top of that. make your next few lines neutral, give that great thought a chance to breathe. | ||
| Cosima
Advanced Member Username: ffyredrop Post Number: 1184 Registered: 12-2003 |
I.M.O.: The main thing is the meaning, idea,or concept. 2nd,originality and sincerity (even sincerely sarcastic for an example) 3rd is rhythm,and sound. 4th the evocations to sense 5th either efficient economy or great quality in profussness 6th eloquent style of form for subject, meaning , concept 7th well done in accepted standards, especially of grammer and spelling for legibility's sake. 8th only offensive where intended, or as decidely negligible. cosima, I.M.O. | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 6487 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Teresa Actually I would say the most important part of a poem is THE WORDS, that is, all of the words have to count. In this sense, I don't think any part of the poem is any more important than any other. Personally I do like a good title and not a disposable title and I like my poems to have a meaningful ending, a close that will end powerfully or provoke an "ah" from the reader. Also I do prefer poems that convey some general truth or make a statement... for the most part I eschew confessional, staring-at-the-navel type poetry. Theresa, I hope this helps.  All the best Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23785 Registered: 07-2001 |
the letters Smiles Gary who is back but has 600 emails to get rid of or otherwise take care of Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 1002 Registered: 01-2005 |
Thanks so much everyone for the great feedback. Since titles are my biggest problem, I guess what I object to are presumptuous titles, silly titles that have nothing to do with the poem. I mean, there will be a title, say---"My Grandmother Had Tea With Abraham Lincoln" and the poem will be about an evergreen tree. Of course I'm painting this in broad strokes to make a point. But I think I need to "let go" a bit and get more creative with my titles. Yep. It's the letters and the words. Best, T. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3966 Registered: 05-2006 |
~M~ et al, The most important part of a poem is the . . . * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on May 19, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 3314 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm beginning to believe the most important part of a poem is the voice. If the voice comes through as honest, and if intent of the voice is to give the reader a fair and uncompromising truth, without sacrificing the honor of anyone or anything, then the poem works. On titles: I agree with brenda that they often come on the heals of a good write. I usually have a working title some time during the write and I'll do rewrites with new titles (it plays havoc with my filing system though because you want to save it to something you'll remember, but that's rarely the final title). I get titles from the poem, sometimes you might find a line might serve better there as you edit. I like to look at verbs for titles because action is always more interesting, but a title is just what it is- the title or heading, the reason why you brought the reader there, so the best title will fit the poem's personality and only the writer can know what that is. I believe many writers give up too soon on writing titles, I think you have to put as much effort into that as the whole poem to get it right. Great topic and question T. And nice to have you back with us! -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29940 Registered: 11-1998 |
Hey, Freddie -- don't you think you really ought to consider the . . . # # # # # | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 6492 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Teresa I agree with Laz of course that the voice is important. I also agree with you that the title should be meaningful and apt to the poem. I do think a catchy title is as important as anything else in the poem. Good luck in choosing titles for your works since you report you have trouble with that! All the best Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 1004 Registered: 01-2005 |
Laz, thanks for dropping by. Of course Voice is so very very important and probably the most difficult to teach --and perhaps learn. I'll look for verbs in my titles now --that's a good tip. Fred, you joker! How could I forget the . . . Chris, thanks for wishing me good luck in choosing titles --glad to read you agree with me on titles that aren't apt to the poem. For me weird titles are like lost leaders in a store or sale of some kind. Best, T. | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 271 Registered: 03-2008 |
Most important part of the poem seems like you want a personal opinion thing here but whatever -- seems to me that the thing I really worry about (these days) is how the poem sounds out loud. | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8677 Registered: 12-2003 |
Teresa, an interesting thing to ponder. the title is the hook the first line is the draw the words are the keepers the last line is the ah ha and somewhere in all that you should find the voice so all are equally important *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3968 Registered: 05-2006 |
In the real world, the most important part of a page poem is what the eye can find in under five seconds. Few of us sit down and read, say, an entire issue of Ploughshares cover to cover. Instead, we leaf through the journal to find what's interesting. So what is interesting? And, especially, how do we separate the interesting from the non-interesting as we scan the journal, glancing briefly at each selection? Our preconceptions and needs will vary. Our aesthetics will vary. Some will go for narrative poems. Others for complex Jorie Graham pieces. Some will glance abstractly. Others will voice fragments of the poem in their heads. Still others will say a line or two out loud. Regardless, we are sampling the piece. And so . . . put plainly, in this context, the successful poem is the one which lays itself out on the snack table like a chewy chip with a rich tart dip. All designed to bring saliva to the tongue and to entice the hand to grab. Now there may be substantial further nourishment awaiting the reader, but if the initial test is not passed, the state of that additional nourishment is moot. There are other contexts, where the reader can take more time, say, a handout of sample poems at a poetry conference, or the poem of a fellow member of a face-to-face critique circle. But these are exceptions. And of course, there are the poetry books we buy, and bite by bite read cover to cover. But, as far as journals, both hardcopy and online, I submit that the usual modus operandi is to scan and sample. And, if the poem has a grand deeper meaning, but fails the scan-and-sample test, then so long. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5699 Registered: 08-2003 |
This is a great thread Teresa. I'm sneaking in here in the midst of too many tasks but I just wanted to say that while a good title is definitely an eye catcher, if I think of all my favorite poems written throughout history titles had almost nothing to do with it. Many of my favorite poets chose generic titles but it didn't stop me from reading their work. In the world of contemporary poetry when flipping through a journal I might be attracted to something based on personal subject preference but I will still scan the opening lines of each poem to find out if I'm interested. I think the opening line is probably the most important aspect of a poem because in this world of ultradrive, I don't have the time or inclination to get two stanzas down to the good stuff. I agree completely with M on the final line of a poem. If that final line is a bomb it will dissuade me from enjoying it and now that I'm an editor I will not suggest a poem for publication if it has a bad end line. I have worked with poets to help them to improve their poem for a better chance at submission if it is close. Overall, the poem itself has to speak to me in a way that makes me feel I'd wish I'd written it. I want to admire 98% of a poem e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| nia sunset
Advanced Member Username: nia Post Number: 1615 Registered: 04-2006 |
Teresa, this is truly so nice topic and I can see that all my poet friends make a wonderful points for this subject, when I think of myself about a poem, if we talk about reading a poem, for me there are two important points for me, 1- its sound (that I wish it to fascinate me) 2- its power of spirit (that I wish it to reach my heart) but if I write a poem, I never think of anything about all of them, I just try to write (to drop, them from my mind).... But writing in English language everything is different, I am struggling with so many things for a poem, maybe I also lose the essence of my original poem, but I know there is no way for this, I will learn everyday much more. anyway I think I am a little bit rebel and ruleless one in my writing world. Thank you, with my love, nia http://www.freewebs.com/butterflywingsofnia/ "Carry the beauties;wash the badnesses with your poetical spirit" | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1182 Registered: 11-2007 |
Billy Collins has a poem with a great title, "Why I No Longer Keep a Gun in the House" and when you read the poem, you keep thinking, yes, but what about the GUN? by the end of the poem the title makes perfect sense. Richard Jackson, in a workshop I attended, said that for him titles are arbitrary, and he often just slaps them on the poem because an editor insisted. One of his that I love is "objects in this mirror are closer than they appear" and unlike Collins', he has written a beautiful love poem that has absolutely nothing to do with mirrors or otherwise. Maybe if the poem is good enough (and the poet well known enough) the title IS arbitrary. Maybe not. *g* | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 1006 Registered: 01-2005 |
Thanks for the continued feedback in this thread. It's good to read what each one of you has to say on this subject. Fred, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say --"what the eye can find in under five seconds" --the scanning of a poem. I, too, flip through journals--scanning for great lines, something that will cause me to pause and read the entire piece. As for titles, I think "name" poets can afford more generic titles but for the rest of us, perhaps a catchy one is needed. Sometimes I'll sit and simply list possible titles...this may or may not result in a poem...but I keep them all in notebooks and you'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many spawn a poem. Judy, I'd like to read that Collins' poem. Great title! I'm going to see if it's online. I have most of his books but don't recall that one... Best, T. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1184 Registered: 11-2007 |
i believe it is, Teresa. It's funny, and classic Billy Collins. you probably won't find it under the title I gave you, but you will find it under this: http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/billy_collins/poems/11282 (Message edited by judyt54 on May 21, 2008) | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23844 Registered: 07-2001 |
Besides the letters, the author...! Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Teresa White
Advanced Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 1012 Registered: 01-2005 |
Thanks for the link, Judy. I guess I had seen it before --very funny... Now who woulda thought the author AND the letters, G. LOL ~Teresa |
