| Author | Message | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1097 Registered: 11-2007 |
It would seem that punctuation matters a great deal to some people, and the lack thereof equally to others. My question is, why? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29426 Registered: 11-1998 |
A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air. "Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder. "I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up." The waiter turns to the the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation. "Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves." So, punctuation really does matter, even if it is only occasionally a matter of life and death. From "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss ---------------- I suppose for those to whom punctuation matters, a misplaced comma can change the entire meaning and they care about that. And I suppose for those to whom punctuation does not matter, this particular problem of misplaced punctuation changing the entire meaning does not matter. Love, M | ||
| Michael Reed Samford
Member Username: mikesamford Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2008 |
I use this site. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/ I thought at length on the future of man, for sanity’s sake, I’ll never do that again. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1100 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think my point was, in poetry the rules, if there are any, are abitrary, up to the writer and what the poem needs. It matters in poetry, but differently. | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 44 Registered: 03-2008 |
the question is not so much whether or not punctuation matters... actually that's hardly a point of discussion, off course it does matter. we are trained to take punctuation as determinative for the meaning of a sentence, hence (to take ~M~'s example above) a sentence reading "a panda eats, shoots and leaves" can't be taken to mean a panda has a diet consisting of shoots and leaves the question is: how does punctuation affects poetry and is the lack of punctuation in poetry a sign of bad grammar. i would say: it tends to hamper the full potential of a poem more likely then not and no it isn't !l. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29434 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Judy -- I wouldn't exactly call the rules arbitrary, as misplaced punctuation can be as confusing in poetry as it is in prose. The example Truss gives would be just as confusing in poetry. Poetry instructors normally advise poetry students to utilize punctuation in poetry exactly as they would in prose. However, I do know what you mean. Some poets operate as if punctuation is arbitrary, either because they lack the knowledge, or because, like e e cummings, for instance, they know the rules, but choose to either break or play with them. e e did some marvelous things with alternate uses and placement of punctuation. Some of his eclectic punctuation placement actually makes the poem, or even makes the poem amusing to those who are aware of how the punctuation is supposed to be used. But because he knew the rules before he broke them and chose consciously to break them, his inventive use of punctuation is normally seen as art, not error. That's the problem. How do you determine if it's art or error? Knowing the poet helps (is he conscious of punctuation uses and knowingly tampering with them? Or is he unknowledgeable and unconsciously making errors?). I'd say for beginning poets especially, you really should know the rules before you consciously break them. Or else it's going to look like accident and not design or effect. There's the risk of playing fast and loose with punctuation. It can be interpreted as error if you don't know what you're doing and why. And like the panda example, alternate/missing/misplaced punctuation can get downright confusing and/or say something you didn't intend. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1101 Registered: 11-2007 |
M, that holds true in any discipline; almost every one of our blues pianists, jazz musicians, even rock and roll piano pounders, had formal training of some sort to start with. The same with art, or dance. You learn the basics, run the scales, and if you've a mind, branch out from there. It also helps, if you're inclined to breath rather than formal punctuation (and most times a mix works as well as anything), reading people skilled at it can only help. You tend to absorb their way of writing. W.S. Merwin has been doing it for decades, in a most magnificent fashion. Most importantly, it depends on the poem being written. Some need punctuation for clarity, some don't. I think that's the bottom line. It depends. forgive any typos, my eyes are playing games this afternoon | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29435 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Judy -- agreed. And your examples are great and very illustrative. (BTW -- don't worry about typos, this is just a discussion). I suppose we have conventions (let's call them that instead of rules) for reasons. If some people, but not all, just got up one morning and decided green means stop and red means go, there'd be hell to pay at stoplights. *LOL* And while that example is extreme, and people have only rarely been injured or killed as a result of using punctuation improperly *grin*, it does point out something important. And that is effective communication. Effective communication is often dependent on adhering to conventions. If the poem or the particular phrase isn't dependent on punctuation, as you pointed out, then I don't think it's nearly so critical. However, my concern is beginning poets and those not formally trained. I always ask if they meant or intended to use that particular piece of punctuation the way they did just to make sure they are aware of what they're doing and that they might be misinterpreted. Some are unaware of the conventions and appreciate being informed of them so they can use commas, semi-colons, etc. properly. Some don't care and don't mind if they are being misunderstood. With more skilled poets or those who have been technically trained, then it's a matter of choice. They know the consequences if they choose unconventional punctuation. And they're fine with that, as am I. Some poems are not heavily dependent on punctuation used conventionally, as you said, and if you want to get creative, then I say go for it. As long as effective communication is a secondary goal and you don't mind that some of your readers may get a bit confused, then I'd say it's OK even in cases where punctuation is important. I might not do it, but I won't bash those who want to or try to force them to change. Love, M P.S. BTW, Merwin is speaking here in Portland in November. The tickets go on sale in July, and I'll be among those first in line to buy them. It will be an honor to hear him speak. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3752 Registered: 05-2006 |
I'm going to admit to a prejudice. There's an affectation that usually very young and/or self-consciously anti-establishment types often adopt -- in my opinion largely as a theatrical gesture: "Look at me, I'm not playing their stupid games." This person will use no punctuation (or almost none) and no caps (or almost none.) Where punctuation will be MOST absent will be where its non-appearance will be most irritating to a conventional reader. Where caps will be most obviously not in attendance will be with the personal pronoun "I" -- an obvious message of this being that the lower case "i" signals a selflessness and a dedication to the "cause" whatever the cause de jour will be. Often something crucial to the survival of the planet like saving the California Spotted Cockroach. In general, these poets write absolutely horrible poetry, with no layering, no depth, no complexity, only socio-political rants or stuff about their GF or BF. If they live in San Diego, then -- being the village ogre -- I can gobble them down with a sprinkle of salsa. But over the internet . . . Fred * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on April 13, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29437 Registered: 11-1998 |
I know, Freddie. Over the internet, you can only make scary sudden moves and yell really loudly, LIKE THIS!!! But thankfully, there's always Gino and Marcello, if all else fails. What would we do without those guys? Love, M | ||
| Douglas Hill
Valued Member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 259 Registered: 04-2007 |
May I add that, in poetry, line breaks, rhythm, cadence, position and rhyme are some of the tonal and rhetorical "tricks" we use to guide tonal and rhtorical inference. Whereas punctuation is essentially a tonal and relativistic indicator, in some instances it would be like explaining a joke, a nuance, an inclination, to use punctuation to stamp the tone into the calm atmospheric pool of the poem. And sometimes, ya gots ta punckchewate. So there.  | ||
| Ros Badcoe
Valued Member Username: endolith Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2008 |
What Douglas said. (very succinctly)  | ||
| Cate
Valued Member Username: cate Post Number: 119 Registered: 02-2008 |
I'm not sure yet, how I want to use punctuation in poetry - I'm still finding my voice - but I do know that I want to learn how to use punctuation so that I at least have a choice. Thanks Michael for the link to the grammar site - it looks like it could be useful. Cate | ||
| Douglas Hill
Valued Member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 262 Registered: 04-2007 |
Here I am again. Sorry. I checked out the grammar site that Michael recommended. I don't understand what relationship it has to this string about whether or not to punctuate poetry. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29445 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Douglas -- I believe Michael was only offering the link to the site hoping it might be helpful as it relates to the entire subject of grammar, including, but not limited to, punctuation. I don't think he meant that the site itself addressed punctuation use in poetry specifically. Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9252 Registered: 07-2002 |
It's interesting, but when I was growing up and learning grammar in the early 1970s, the accepted style was *not* to have a comma between the second and third items of a list (the so-called serial comma). It's still not natural for me to add that additional comma in when I'm writing. I often forget them out of sheer automatic habit. Now the accepted style is to use the serial comma and in fact, it does add clarity to the list sentence. If you haven't had a chance and you are a grammar nerd, do read the "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" book. It's brilliant. She even has a picture book version for kids that illustrates the differences in meaning with and without proper comma usage. Eg, Look at that big, hot dog, versus Look at that big hot dog. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3763 Registered: 05-2006 |
One element that punctuation -- and lineation -- can enhance or develop is the non-linear forward movement of a poem in time. When people read poetry at open mics, I often notice that they read with metronomic regularity. Now I don't speak that way, and I don't write that way -- and I suspect you don't either. If a poem is not loaded up with commas in order to follow grammatical rules, as in the case of the one comma you've encountered so far in this sentence . . . then a comma generates a half-caesura, a slight pause in the movement of the line. To me, pauses are EXTREMELY important. If a writer asks: "What am I doing here?" either in prose or in poetry, it is actually silly for the writer to launch without pause into the answers to this question. A pause can signify: What you've just heard is especially important, so here's a brief moment for it to sink in. The lack of the pause might even represent a mockery, or ironic twist, on the seriousness of the question. Food for thought. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29450 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks very much, Freddie, for the eloquent explanation. I agree with you. In fact, I was going to say that punctuation/caesura in writing is like stops or pauses in music, though I'm not an expert in musical notation. I think people have a tendency to forget that writing is simply a visual representation of speech. And that the punctuation is there to guide the reader or the speaker in where to rest, where to breathe. White or blank space is as important to the page as what is printed on it, as any graphic artist will tell you. Rests are an important part of any composition. I've noticed that metronomic regularity you speak of in the way people read at open mics myself. I call it the "poet voice." It is very unsettling and I wish people wouldn't do it. It makes poetry sound somewhat alien. I don't know where people got the idea that reading like that is a good thing. Poetry is music. It should have the normal cadences of regular speech. I like to remember when I'm reading that I'm telling people stories. And that the voice is a beautiful instrument. A beautiful voice, full of the richness of speech and emotion can turn a so-so poem into a wonderful one. And the converse is true. A wooden voice can turn a great poem into a disaster. I want to say to them, "Please. Don't turn yourself into a metronome." No one likes to listen to those automated voices on the telephone that tell you what buttons to push. The voice should be lyrical. It should have lilt and movement and variance. And punctuation is there to help in that regard. Love, M | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2008 |
I feel partially responsible for this conversation -- but there's not much to add to your wonderful comments. The problem is -- did anyone ever see the Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin has a debate with his dad which renders him 2-dimensional? As in, now he understood both side of the issue? And that fact somehow altered his reality and he was paper-thin? That's how I feel. I suppose it comes down to artistry. If the poem OWNS UP to its anti-grammatical stance, then fine. As an example, I think of cummings "pity this busy monster manunkind" or a poet-friend of mine, Donna Kuhn, whose book "Up Bluen" pretty much rejects every convention I've come to understand. So where does this leave me? | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2008 |
ironically calvin is always paper-thin and two dimensional (and, btw, arguing the opposite side of an issue is an art and can only be beneficial) fact is however that non-punctuation or non-standard-punctuation is not anti-grammatical in the context of poetry and to take up on something else that came up here: reading poetry out loud in public is something detestable. poetry should be read (and contemplated) in silence and solitude (Message edited by linus on April 15, 2008) !l. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29472 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest WF -- Where does that leave you? Right back where you started. All discussions are circular, with people only giving their opinions. It's your choice when it comes to your own work. You are the final authority there. I'm afraid no one else can make those decisions. Only you, armed with as much information as you care to take on board. I'll be anxious to see what you decide. Oh, and every poem is a chance for a new decision. Dearest linus -- "reading poetry out loud in public is something detestable." Speak for yourself. Oh, wait a minute -- you did.  Love, M | ||
| linus
Member Username: linus Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2008 |
correction: i wrote that !l. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29474 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest linus -- yes, you did write that. And just to defy you, I went and read it out loud. In public. And people even clapped. Which is the height of detestable. Despicable too. Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3768 Registered: 05-2006 |
This discussion is turning into the Commanist Manifesto. Derf * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on April 15, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Morgan Lafay
Senior Member Username: morganlafay Post Number: 3363 Registered: 08-2005 |
Wellllllllll, shooooooooooot; I don't got nothing to ad that ain't been sed.  | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29505 Registered: 11-1998 |
Haven't you noticed, Derf, that discussion threads around here never end up being about what the person who started them wanted to discuss. I'm not sure how that happens exactly, but I'm thinking it's a magic trick or somethin'. *LOL* Love, M | ||
| "A-Bear"
Senior Member Username: dane Post Number: 2150 Registered: 11-1998 |
Commas? At my age, I worry more about missing periods. D | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23354 Registered: 07-2001 |
I am interested in Fred's comments in this thread and the rhyme one about how people read at open mics. I would be interested in how others feel, but have not the time to start the conversation. Maybe if Fred could? Thanks. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm |
