| Author | Message | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29328 Registered: 11-1998 |
. Dearest All -- last night, steve and I had the honor and pleasure of attending a reading by Lucille Clifton, one of our country's finest poets and a national treasure, at the Portland Poetry Downtown series sponsored by Literary Arts. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with Ms. Clifton, here is an excerpt from last night's program: "Lucille Clifton is one of our best-loved poets. Her poems have appeared in over 100 anthologies, and her book, Blessing the Boats (2000), won the National Book Award. Her work explores topics from race and family to spirituality and womanhood. The editor of Poetry magazine has said that Clifton's poems "are at once outraged and tender, small and explosive, sassy and devout. She sounds like no one else, and her achievement looks larger with each passing year." Clifton was born in 1936 in Depew, New York. Her father worked in coal mines and steel mills, and her mother was a launderer and housewife. Her mother was also a poet and Clifton has said she learned "respect and wonder and love for language" from her parents. Clifton was the first person in her family to graduate from high school. She attended Howard University in Washington, D.C. where she studied drama and, in 1955, she performed in James Baldwin's first play, The Amen Corner. After two years at Howard she transferred to Fredonia State Teachers College where she met the novelist Ishmael Reed. Reed showed her poems to Langston Hughes, who published them in an anthology. Clifton married Fred Clifton in 1958 and spent the next several years raising six children and writing poetry. Her first book, Good Times, was published in 1969. The New York Times chose it as one its 10 best books that year. Since then, Clifton has published 12 more books of poetry, a memoir and over 20 books for children. Clifton served as Distinguished Professor of Humanities and the Hilda C. Landers Endowed Chair in Liberal Arts at St. Mary's College of Maryland until her retirement in 2005. She also served for several years as the Poet Laureate of Maryland. Nominated three times for the Pulitzer Prize, she is the only writer who has had two books as finalists for the Pulitzer in the same year. In 2007 she received the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize. Her thirteenth book of poems, Voices, will be published in September 2008." From Clifton herself: "I think everyone has in his or her self the urge to express, and people do it with what they love, I suppose. Cooks do it with food; there are people who do it with their hair, with clothing, fabric. I loved words always, the sound of words, the feeling of words in my mouth, and so I did it that way." ----------------- Being in the room with Clifton is like visiting with a beloved grandmother. She is warm and informal. You get the feeling that if they had coffee on the stage, she'd ask who in the audience would like a cup and come pour you one. And offer you cookies too, though she says she likes to eat, but doesn't like to cook. In between reading her work, she gives background on the poems and her inspirations, as well as her thoughts on a wide range of subjects, from her own family to racial/cultural/social issues. At the end of her program, she entertained questions and requested that we ask her our embarrassing questions, either embarrassing for us or for her. Didn't matter, she'd answer anything. If Ms. Clifton is performing in a city near you, we highly recommend that you purchase tickets and attend. She is a gifted speaker, and a gift to the world. Oh, and bring your most embarrassing questions. Lucille doesn't mind telling you anything you want to know. Love, M ------------------------------------------------- We were fortunate enough to hear Ms. Clifton recite "Homage to My Hips", one of my all time favorites and perhaps her most famous. At the end, the audience rose to its feet and cheered. Here it is for your enjoyment, though hearing her perform it is a special treat: Homage to My Hips by Lucille Clifton these hips are big hips. they need space to move around in. they don't fit into little petty places. these hips are free hips. they don't like to be held back. these hips have never been enslaved, they go where they want to go they do what they want to do. these hips are mighty hips. these hips are magic hips. i have known them to put a spell on a man and spin him like a top. Hear Lucille read: Homage to My Hips Buy Lucille Clifton's: Blessing the Boats . | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9194 Registered: 07-2002 |
I have had the honor of hearing her read at the Dodge Poetry festival. It's coming around again this fall and if you can possibly make it, I urge anyone to beg, borrow, or steal the transportation to NJ and attend.  ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3703 Registered: 05-2006 |
Thanks for this. I have her Blessing the Boats in my library. I will take this as a prompt to pull it out of the "mob of books" and reread a few of her pieces. (When I think of the mob of books I think of Sarah's poem "Bedside Books", and urge the powers that me to give it at least an HM as poem of the week. It's that good.) Fred (Message edited by sandiegopoet on April 07, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 660 Registered: 10-2007 |
Dear M, I think this is preferential, and although I like the poem and article you presented, I have a feeling I'm being "sold." Amen. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29371 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- Good. Glad to hear you feel that way. You are being "sold." But that doesn't mean you have to buy. Na-na -- got you to look at least. Love, M | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2007 |
You are correct and I also know some very fine writers, one for example who is a Pulitzer Prize winner who has not been mentioned here. Regarding "Homage to My Hips," while I think it is good, I don't thin it any better than than the last two or three poems I have written, which, in fact, I think are as good, if not better writing than this particular poem. I really believe that poetry has been degraded to who in authority thinks this or that is best. And I speak not just of this site, but many others. And that is the reason I prefer to read, and limit my time and activities to any internet sites that seem to have developed their own agendas. I know I am not alone in my thoughts. I can watch Hollywood films if I choose commercialism. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| Lisa England
Valued Member Username: diamondwife Post Number: 200 Registered: 08-2007 |
I actually had never heard of Lucille Clifton. Starting to think I live under a rock. I did find her poem posted here quite good and loved the part about her hips "put a spell on a man and spin him like a top". I'd like to think that as women we all have that special magic. Thanks so much for sharing and I plan to look up more of her work. (Message edited by diamondwife on April 09, 2008) Lisa England
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| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 662 Registered: 10-2007 |
As you know, I like this site, but I am opposed to "pushing" poetry. If the site needs money, I think it would be better if it were to require a sum,even just $10.00 per participant, and sell the site as the quality site it is. Let's face it, getting exposure to yourself, Fred, Teresa, Emusing, STS, and a few others would be worth the price, at least to me. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29374 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- Some people like vanilla. Some people like chocolate. Luckily, the ice cream store sells many different kinds. Not that I'm trying to sell you on ice cream now. It was just an extended metaphor. Love, M P.S. I don't care where people buy the books, Walter, just that they buy the books. Any books. And if not the books I recommend, that's fine. Just so long as they're buying and reading books. Our book sales make us pennies -- literally. That's not why we have a BookShop here. As to pushing literature and literacy, sorry, Walter. I'll never stop doing that. | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 663 Registered: 10-2007 |
Personally, I don't think: "to put a spell on a man and spin him like a top." is that unique or original. And, she does not capitalize the first letter of each line as you advised me was necessary some time ago. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 664 Registered: 10-2007 |
I'm speaking of quality. Not quantity. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2163 Registered: 01-2003 |
Walter I happen to know that M would never advise anyone to capitalize the first word of every line, methinks you misread that particular comment. as for Ms. Clifton, she has the honor to be the only poet to be short listed for the pulitzer with not one but two books in the same year. It isn't just us who thinks she is something special. I you don't like her, it's fine with us, just be aware you are in the minority. As for selling books, we made 90 cents the last three months. This is not and never will be anything but a free site for all. warmly s | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 665 Registered: 10-2007 |
Steve. I'm happy to make your aquaintance, and I'm surprised to hear from you, and not M. Since I merely espressed an opinion, I'm quite surprised at the respnse. You don't need to advise me my opinion of your world doesn't count. I expected as much. And yes, M did advise me to capatilize the beggining of each line when I first started on this site, stating that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I would need to do such a thing. Steve, I'm sure you are a nice fellow, but do not become condensending. I don't care what you agree with or not, I merely expressed an opinion, and that opinion should not bother anyone. I'm in the minority? Even if I am, maybe I am correct, but I don't think I'm in the minority, just that I've never heard of her, but have heard of many other poets who have been recognized that you probably have never heard of. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 666 Registered: 10-2007 |
It's also interesting to note that how this poem does come close to the parameters that are usually espoused. I just seems so different! All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9215 Registered: 07-2002 |
Walter, I am genuinely puzzled by your objections to this thread. It is in the 'general discussion' forum and represents an opinion of one poet. No one is trying to sell you anything. M was (I believe) simply trying to share her enthusiasm about a poet who she enjoyed hearing. You, of course, have the right to disagree. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your first response where you said: "Dear M, I think this is preferential, and although I like the poem and article you presented, I have a feeling I'm being "sold." Amen." And I've been a member of this site since 2002. Before I was a moderator, I was a member. In all that time, I have *never* seen M advise a poet to capitalize the first letter of each line. In fact, again and again I have seen her remind poets that it is *not* the style to do so. You also state that: "You are correct and I also know some very fine writers, one for example who is a Pulitzer Prize winner who has not been mentioned here. " Go ahead and share your favorites with the poets at Wild. Start a thread to discuss a different poet. It's not a zero sum game--M can rave over Lucille Clifton. I can rave over Jane Kenyon. (In fact, I have, mentioning her poem 'Otherwise' many, many times.) My love of Kenyon in no way diminishes how others feel about Clifton. So, I'm really puzzled as to what the issue is here. There are no flashing ads telling members to buy poetry books nor any pushing of any kind. Hell, we don't even hawk the Wild anthology that was published a few years back, other than to link to it in the bookshop. best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29375 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- I would never advise anyone to capitalize the beginning of each line, as this is an older style in poetry and I normally advise against it. Perhaps you meant the beginning of each sentence. That is another matter, and is normally done in English. However, Ms. Clifton had her reasons for using all lowercase. Given the diction of this poem, its subject matter, and her audience, I understand her choice. steve was not being condescending. He merely meant that there are a vast number people in the world, the Pulitzer people and others (there were nearly 1000 in just the audience of the reading we attended), who love Ms. Clifton. If you do not, that's fine. No one is arguing with your opinions or trying to change them. I wish I had the time (and space) to analyze the entire breadth of Ms. Clifton's work, her stature, and the age in which she began her career. But I don't. If she interests you, you can educate yourself on her influence and her influences both online and at any public library. But she doesn't seem to interest you and that's perfectly all right. Not every author will appeal to every person. Love, M P.S. The reason that Wild is the quality site that even you might agree that it is, Walter, is precisely because of resources like the BookShop and the wealth of other information available here. There is no reality, only perception. If you feel like it is "hawking," that's because you choose to see it that way. Dispensing information and accumulating resources in the form of books displayed/recommended in our BookShop could also be seen as educational, not mere hawking. I'm just offering a convenient place to research and to buy, if they are interested in that. I suppose it's all in how you look at it. But you're never going to convince me that exposing people to books and authors is a bad thing. No one forces anyone to buy anything here. | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 667 Registered: 10-2007 |
And I've been a member of this site since 2002. Before I was a moderator, I was a member. In all that time, I have *never* seen M advise a poet to capitalize the first letter of each line. In fact, again and again I have seen her remind poets that it is *not* the style to do so. Well, she did, not that it matters much, and if I could pull it up from an archive, I would be happy to put it in front of you. I just love your response, so defensive. And merely from an opinion expressed. I am entitled to my opinion. If that annoys any of you, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry since it's only an opinion. And I never suggested deleting this thread, so I don't care how long it lasts. In fact, I feel it is a selling job, regardless of what you may feel. As I mentioned, this site is worth a fee per year and perhaps that avenue shoud be pursued. Pardon me for offending everyone. God help us! All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29376 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- I don't know how to say this any more clearly, so perhaps I should capitalize it. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. Selling people on books ---> YES. Selling people on MY books and profiting on that ---> NO. Love, M | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 668 Registered: 10-2007 |
M, I understand, and I respect your opinion. I think this site gives poets a place to test their work and refine it. I admire you, and this site for this, since I think it is very important and overlooked. Perhaps I overreacted, if I did in your mind I apologize now. I am not a malicious person. Since I'm from New York City and not from a refined background in any way, I probably come across as rough and unpolished, although I am well-educated formally. I just have very direct methods of expression that may shock some people, even in what little I write. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29377 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- I know that you are not a malicious person and would never think that of you. There is no need to apologize. I'm sorry that you felt your opinions or you were being disrepected in any way. That was certainly no one's intent. Refinement has nothing to do with it. I don't happen to like science fiction very much ( don't tell Lisa that *LOL* ). A little here and there, but it is not my favorite genre. I am allowed to not find that genre very appealing just as you are allowed to not find Ms. Clifton very appealing. What was of most concern to me is that you might be misinterpreting the reason and value of the BookShop. It's just one-stop shopping, that's all, meant more for convenience and education than hawking. If we make a few pennies in there, we just turn right around and distribute it back to the membership in the form of programs like the Creativity Challenge Grand Prize and the Get Paid for Publishing Program. But more often than not, most quarters, we are in the red. And I like that. It means that Wild is giving out much more than she is taking in. That pleases me just fine. Love, M | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 669 Registered: 10-2007 |
I'm ok with that M, but quite frankly, I myself would not have any problem spending a mere $10.00 a year for the benefit of reading and receiving feedback from some people who really are quite good poets, as well as posting my own work. I think that is very little to ask of anyone who would partake in a site such as this. This is just my opinion. Many people spend $10.00 at various times without a second thought. I think the thing that throws me is that Cliftons poem are so unlike poems that the IBPC espouses, and so unlike what is often recognized here. Her writing is more like what I read from poets and more like my own. This is just an observation on my part. I'd still be willing to pay the ten dollars. (Message edited by summerguy2007 on April 09, 2008) All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29378 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Walter -- that is quite generous of you, but we would never want Wild to become a pay-to-play site. Charging membership fees is not in line with my approach to the world and my philosophies and never would be. But here's what you can do. You can take a stroll through the BookShop and look around. If you find anything appealing and the price/convenience that Amazon offers seems like a good deal to you (i.e., they are offering the book/other product you want at a price that is equal to or lower than your local retail store), go ahead and buy something. You don't even have to buy one of the books listed in the BookShop if you don't like anything on our list. Just entering Amazon through the Wild link in the BookShop means that we will get a few pennies from anything you buy there. Wild's cut is normally between 3-4% of the purchase price. So, we make about 3-4 cents on the dollar. On a $10 book, that's 30 to 40 cents. That way, you get a book (or something else) that you want (it's not just charity or a fee), and our membership benefits. It's win-win all the way around. Buy enough things and you could work your way up to $10 to Wild over an extended period of time and have a whole bunch of lovely books in your library to show for it. Our BookShop is quite valuable, especially to people in remote areas who don't have ready access to fully-stocked book stores or libraries. Amazon is pretty good if what you're looking for is not popular enough to be stocked and your local book store is small. And sometimes they are even a good source for out-of-print or foreign books. Not the best source, maybe, but at least they offer this program so sites like Wild can benefit. BTW -- that's just a suggestion IF you want to give back. I'm not hawking the BookShop again. *LOL* Love, M | ||
| nia sunset
Advanced Member Username: nia Post Number: 1313 Registered: 04-2006 |
Dear "M", I have met today with "Lucille Clifton" by your thread, oh dear, how I wished to be there and to listen to this beautiful lady, I am jealousy about this, you should be so lucky for all these beautiful things. Yes, dear, you shared and you introduced her to especially such a poetry lover as me and who hasn't meet before... And then, I searched and read with a help of my only library, with google and with so many links about her. All my evening was with her. How beautiful poet, I found a lovely voice into her poems, especially all about mother's love for their children, she brings so nice touches of humanity, and in every language and in every culture she can find her lovers, I loved her. let me add too one more quote from her, "People wish to be poets more than they wish to write poetry, and that's a mistake. One should wish to celebrate more than one wishes to be celebrated." Lucille Clifton THANK YOU Dear M, you made me rich and I am so glad for this, with my love, nia  http://www.freewebs.com/butterflywingsofnia/ "Carry the beauties;wash the badnesses with your poetical spirit" | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 671 Registered: 10-2007 |
Thank you M, I am currently finishing reading a book of poems from The Dodge Poetry Festival that I bought a few weeks ago. That is why I structured my poem "Bob" based on a poem by Mark Doty who read there some time ago. I just bought four recently because they were so reasonable. Four almost new books for just $22. including shipping, and two of them are hardcover. I will definately look over the bookstore here next time and if it is relatively comparable, I will be happy to order there. I also don't think a pay-to-play site is good, I just thought why should a poetry site be living on the edge when it should not be. The world is full of wealth, why shouldn't some of it trickle this way. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29379 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear nia -- I'm so very glad to know that Lucille is bringing you joy and richness. That's terrific! May she and others continue to bring you pleasure. Dear Walter -- Thank you. Oh, we are definitely not living on the edge. Wild's expenses are minimal. Amazon offers this program and I thought if people are buying books at Amazon anyway, why not buy here at Wild? But I really don't care where they buy. And as for the world's wealth, much of it streams through Wild's door on a daily basis. Look around you and at yourself. Our members are so much better than money. We are extremely rich in what matters. Love, M | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 672 Registered: 10-2007 |
M, What you say here is true, but since I believe in Socialism I believe important things in life, such as the arts, writing and poetry should be supported in a much more vigorous way. It should be about encouraging things other than death and destruction. I have a Schopenhauer approach to life. All that is personal soon rots unless it is packed in ice and salt. -- Yeats | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3731 Registered: 05-2006 |
I jus' love it when I hear: "There is no reality, only perception." It makes me want to say: "Reality is so colored by perception that it often seems that 'there is no reality, only perception.'" But I won't say this. I won't, I won't. Fred (Message edited by sandiegopoet on April 10, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Lisa England
Valued Member Username: diamondwife Post Number: 202 Registered: 08-2007 |
I'm a fan of googling things I've never heard of so I googled Schopenhauer. I found this quote quite disturbing. the chief sign that a man has any nobility in his character is the little pleasure he takes in others’ company. Lisa England
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| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 551 Registered: 07-2006 |
Fred, some alternatives for you. "There is no spoon." "There is no Dana only Zuul" "There is[sic] no batches, which is fine cuz we don' need no steenking batches!" Hopefully one of these works better for you. I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 6390 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi M Many thanks for this nice homage to Maryland resident Lucille Clifton. As you can imagine, she is a favorite poet in this region as well as nationally. On Sunday, I was at a Poetry Extravanganza at Barnes and Noble in Bel Air sponsored by the Harford Poetry and Literary Society, and president and organizer Alan Reese read Ms. Clifton's "Homage to My Hips" as a personal favorite of his. Interesting to hear Alan, a talented poet and a slender older white guy who does a one-man show about Mark Twain, read the poem by this unique and gifted African American lady!  All the best Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29382 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Freddie -- I want to say "If Reality is so colored by perception that it often seems that there is no reality, only perception, then in effect, there might as well be no reality, as the end result's the same. Except there's a reality there that practically no one agrees on making it pretty much useless, functionally speaking, since they either can't perceive it or agree on it, even though it is of major concern to people who can't stop debating about the existence of a reality (for reasons I can neither perceive nor explain) because they insist everyone else acknowledge and accept there is a reality that practically no one agrees on when they talk about reality because they all perceive it differently, and I'll also refrain from saying that I probably won't utilize a reality I can't perceive just like I probably won't sit on a chair I can't perceive, though (since I am so broadminded and accepting) I will certainly encourage and permit debaters of a reality I can't perceive to sit on the unperceived (by me) chair they insist is still there if they want to when they come to visit me and eat my cookies while they say (with their mouths full) just because there's no one around to hear the tree fall in the forest that doesn't mean it still doesn't make a sound because they will debate anyone, anywhere, about anything since they can't stop debating. Even if you give them real cookies." However, since this is quite a mouthful, I won't, I won't. I'll just use the shorthand "There is no reality, only perception" because there's less to type. Dearest Lisa -- that is pretty disturbing. *shiver* Dearest Will -- There is no fork, there is no nirvana, there is (sic) no batches of cookies 'cause Freddie ate them all, there is no nothing, and no no one, and no no place. There is also no relief for an overworked admin from people who tease her mercilessly. Will, are you still listening? Will?? Ohmigod, there is no Will! I've lost my Will to live. Dearest Chris -- thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Yes, I would have loved to hear a slender older white guy read Ms. Clifton. Wish you had gotten it on tape! Love to All (Especially the fruits and nuts in the cookies), M | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2005 |
LOLOLOL. M, I'm gonna frame your response. Which one, you ask. Well the best one of course. regards Sue | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29383 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks, sue. Although I probably wouldn't encourage you to frame it because it may or may not be there, depending on your perception though Freddie will probably tell us it is - or maybe he'll tell us it isn't. Who knows? All I know is I've had a lot of experience accepting people's perceived realities. Hey, we were children of the '60s, we were hippies, there were a lot of reality-altering substances laying around. What can I say? At least I'm not dain-bramaged.  Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3732 Registered: 05-2006 |
Pardon me, Lucille, for co-opting your thread to a degree. * * * * * The "all is perception" argument has much going for it, until we move into the areas of science and mathematics. Gravity -- relativistic considerations aside -- pulls masses toward one another and obeys an inverse square law. Most everyone who does "research" about gravity seems to agree on this, though how gravity got to be there, etc., is another issue entirely. So . . . we can say that, although everyone perceives gravity in a manner particular to their own psyche, people (Iracus notwithstanding) can reach a fairly high level of agreement that "out there," so to speak there's a principle operating that pulls masses toward one another and roughly follows an inverse square law. Mathematics offers a different challenge to radical subjectivism. It appears that pi, e the natural log, and other constants of both math and physics as well as certain tool sets of mathematics and physics -- e.g. the calculus and statistics -- are embedded into the very structure of the universe in a marvelous way. Again, why this is is a question for metaphysics and religion, but the fact that it is causes many scientists and intellectuals, myself included, to stand in awe. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29393 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Freddie -- there is no gravity, only comedy. Here -- have a cookie. Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9217 Registered: 07-2002 |
Bumper sticker seen on a car near MIT: Gravity: Not just a good idea, it's the law. Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 554 Registered: 07-2006 |
Fred Longworth wrote: "...until we move into the areas of science and mathematics." Not entirely true. I had a (fairly one-sided, I must admit) conversation with an engineer friend about quantum physics a few months ago. From what I understand, the atoms that make up my liver are just as like to be in, say, the center of the sun as anywhere else until they are directly observed (dare we say percieved?) in my liver. Of course if we accept that proposition as a reality, then, again, any contrary perceptions become more or less irrelavant, and I believe we have just stepped into an M.C. Escher drawing. Or perhaps a Karyna McGlynn poem. I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3733 Registered: 05-2006 |
Will, This has to do with quantum mechanics. According to quantum physicists, the location of a particle can assume an infinite number of different venues. This is called the wave function. When the position of the particle is actually observed, the wave function collapses into a particular location. Before the wave function collapses, though, the assigned probabilities for all possible locations are not the same. The probability that an electron will be 1/100,000,000,000th of an inch from a reference point is much greater than that it will be 100,000 light years away from that same reference point. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 555 Registered: 07-2006 |
See? I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant |
