| Author | Message | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29215 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Membership -- I just wanted to make you all aware that there have been discussions behind the scenes on IBPC issues. There is one thing in particular I wanted to make sure was understood by everyone. When/if your poem is selected by the IBPC for an honor -- whether that be first, second, third place or honorable mention -- that poem might or will then considered published. Therefore, it could be unavailable for you to submit to magazines that state they do not publish previously published work. If your poem is submitted to the IBPC by Wild, but does not receive any recognition, then it is still available for submission by you anywhere you choose. In case anyone is wondering how recognition distributed here at Wild in the form of Poem of the Week, Honorable Mentions, and/or Challenge winners is affected by this issue, this restriction does NOT apply. Wild Poetry Forum is a poetry workshop, not a publishing house. Any work posted here and/or any work that receives recognition under our roof is not considered published by us and is subsequently available for you to submit to any magazine of your choice. I wanted to ensure that everyone was aware of these distinctions so that problems and/or conflicts could be avoided. Should any of you have any questions regarding this matter, please post them in this thread or write to us at adminwpf@wildpoetryforum.com. Thanks! Love, M (Administrator) | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3633 Registered: 05-2006 |
Here's are two things I found on the home page for the IBPC: MISSION STATEMENT: "We hope to provide continued assistance, incentive, and an environment which is conducive to the continual growth, in both quality and popularity, of poetry on the Internet." REQUEST FOR JUDGES OF MONTHLY COMPETITION: "If you are an editor of a print magazine or journal and would like to volunteer to judge for the IBPC, please send a letter of interest and brief bio to Gina Bryson." The italics are mine. I will not be so rude as to suggest that we have a contradiction in process here. Neither will I cite a conversation overheard in the men's room . . . that perhaps the IBPC is trying to siphon a few gallons of legitimacy from the plenteous tank of the hardcopy press. * * * * * Ah, but who am I to judge? I am a bumbling derf, touting my faint sunshine of certitudes all through this dreary post-modern winter, and deluded by a cabal of barbaric prejudices. Sigh. Fred (Message edited by sandiegopoet on March 30, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2007 |
How is getting selected as a winner for the IBPC considered being published? As I understand it, the winners are selected and then all that work is archived by month and year at wherever the IBPC archives their pieces. did I miss a step in these past few years? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29216 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Fred and Judy -- perhaps it would be better stated that many journals are now making the determination that if a poem has won in an internet contest (like the IBPC), that the poem is then "published" as far as they are concerned, and if they do not consider previously published work, they are unlikely to accept it. Some journals are going so far as to make this same determination about workshops, blogs, private websites, etc. They are being very black and white about it. If the poem is available for public viewing, they are considering it "published" for all intents and purposes. Like it or not, quite a few journals are very sensitive about "exclusivity" -- they want their mag to be the only place where a particular piece appears. I suppose they feel if you can read it elsewhere, it dilutes their rights to be the sole/first "publisher" of it. So, it is not really the IBPC that has made these determinations, but rather the individual journals themselves. Is this appropriate? No, in my opinion it is not. Does it apply to every journal? No, it does not. Therefore, my recommendation is to query the individual journal you are interested in submitting to regarding their stance on this issue if you want to submit work to them that has won previous distinctions in contests like the IBPC. Unfortunately, we are in a very grey area right now when it comes to the internet display of material. There are no standards that apply across the board and each journal is making its own determinations about what that editorial board feels is "previously published work." Perhaps down the road a piece, some standard will be agreed upon, but at this point in time, each journal is a case-by-case matter. Some make a point of clarifying this in their submissions guidelines page, some do not. I highly recommend contacting the editors if you want to send them pieces that have previously won in widely publicized contests like the IBPC if the journal's submission page does not specify their policies about accepting work that has won distinctions in other venues. As it pertains to those journals that do accept previously published work, this is a non-issue. If they like your poem, they would most likely accept it whether it won honors elsewhere or not. And finally, there are some journals that still do not recognize the internet as a publishing venue at all. In their opinion, appearance on the net means nothing. And so for them, the fact that the piece has won honors in an internet contest is irrelevant. They will accept it even if they say they don't accept "previously published work" because they don't see the internet as a legitimate venue. Mostly these are print journals who want nothing to do with the internet and have no internet presence. So, as you can see, it's a very mixed-up bag at this juncture in history. Confusing for everyone. We are still in the internet's infancy, in relative terms, as it pertains to publishing. Many publishers are still trying to get a handle on what display of material on the internet means to them and how they are going to address this issue. If you remember, a comparable shake-up occurred in the music industry when music downloads first became available on the net. It is my hope that some kind of standarization will be reached soon. I hope this explains things a bit better. Love, M | ||
| W.F. Roby
Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2008 |
Does this affect anyone else's desire to participate in the IBPC the way it affects mine? I'd assume there are FEW poets who would consider the IBPC a "publication". | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2008 |
hmmm, we live in interesting times... the net is becoming more and more a serious alternative for traditional media and in the end that can only be an evolution for the better. as far as poetry is concerned i would say any poem that is posted somehow online, in a longterm way and as a clearly finished piece can/should be viewed as "published". in other words, it doesn't really matter whether a poem got honours in a contest or say was posted by the author on his own website: both are equally "published" on the other hand, work posted in a workshop (like this one) can't be considered as such, it's work in progress and/or only temporarily available for discussion (unless i am mistaken and this place is archived) !l. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1016 Registered: 11-2007 |
It makes me think about it a bit more carefully, Roby, since I never really felt a poem that is viewed as a contest piece and then tucked away in an archive was 'published'. But as M said, it isnt our perception, it's the perception of the editors. And in a way you can't blame them, can you. If they wont accept a poem that's been published in an offline mag, and viewed by maybe three or four hundred people, why should they feel better about something that's been viewed by possibly several hundred (or several thousand) more, online? I do honor the idea that places online which actually make up a magazine format and consider themselves legitimate magazines, are publishing venues. But the original intent when Mike Neff started IBPC was to give honor to online writers from all over the net, from any board that had writers on it. Not necessarily a publishing venture, or there would indeed be a tidy little magazine out there called the IBPC Magazine. We've come a ways, however. Print magazines no longer insist on actual typed sheets, they do allow us to use computers to work from. And a surprising number of them now will accept electronic submissions. Maybe in ten or twenty years... | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29223 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks, W.F., linus, and Judy, for your further views. There is a lot of discussion and controversy going on behind the scenes about this issue. Many are very uncomfortable, even distressed, that the IBPC (and other contests like it) would be considered as "publishers." You are right, Judy, about Mr. Neff's original intent. I don't believe he ever envisioned the IBPC as comparable to an online magazine. But as is so often the case, the growth of something as well as the introduction of third-parties (in this case, journal publishers) into the mix inevitably changes the original creator's intent and goals. I don't think the IBPC, or any contest like it, is entirely to blame. Although I do believe they have some responsibility to attempt to re-steer the boat, as much as is possible, in the direction they wished it to go in the first place. They can either decide to allow journals to continue to consider them a publishing vehicle or they can speak out in objection to this, if indeed they do object to it. It remains to be seen exactly what the IBPC will choose to do, but for now, I believe their stance is to inform the authors of the winning poems that those poems could very well be considered "published" by a wealth of journals that the authors might have considered as potential homes for that work. And they've left the onus up to the individual authors to work that out with each journal they choose to pursue. I'm not entirely happy about that, but I'll continue to work behind the scenes as much as is possible to inform the IBPC people of our membership's feelings and views regarding this issue. And try to ensure that everyone's interests are being represented. As admin of a poetry workshop forum, I'm very concerned about this issue as it relates to workshops. As linus points out, Wild (and its peers) is NOT a publishing house, the work posted here is NOT finalized, and it is definitely my goal to have it considered UNpublished by any journal. That is why I made that public statement above, and I would be glad to make it privately to any journal on behalf of anyone in our membership who is experiencing difficulties in this regard. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1018 Registered: 11-2007 |
Informing someone after the fact that golly you WON but oops, you can't submit this anywhere else now, sorry, is kind of a two edged sword, isnt it. And not entirely fair to the poets. It should be clearly stated over the door that winning constitutes publishing, period. It may be that what they're afraid of is losing those very poets who WILL be published, or expect to be, so they dont inform anyone until the damage (so to speak) done. Does this sound about right? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29224 Registered: 11-1998 |
Bingo, Judy. Many are viewing it exactly as expressed by you. And some are seriously considering pulling out of the IBPC because of it. They feel it is very unfair to poets to work so hard on a poem, have it recognized in a limited venue like a contest, and then find that this prevents them from publishing it elsewhere. In my opinion, this means that contests like the IBPC are going to have to seriously broaden their horizons so that poets displayed there feel they are getting the wide exposure they deserve, or seriously narrow their focus so that publishers don't consider them a competitor or threat to doing business. How is it going to play out? It's anybody's guess at the moment. There's nothing to say that you can't write directly to the IBPC board with your thoughts and feelings. Perhaps getting enough letters from the people who count, that is the poets who are affected and in some cases negatively impacted by this, will convince them they need to be more proactive. Love, M | ||
| W.F. Roby
Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 97 Registered: 03-2008 |
M, Any chance of that actually working? Or should those of us who are against it simply refuse to participate? I've been "published" in IBPC before, and the poem has since appeared somewhere else, a publication that actually PAID me to make me feel even worse. Now I feel like I owe them something back, and that's just awful. I guess I'm asking if there's anything anyone can do besides simply writing to them, as I have already done? EDIT -- My emails to IBPC have come back twice. Do I have the correct email contact? IBPC@webdelsol.com ? (Message edited by wfroby on March 30, 2008) | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2149 Registered: 01-2003 |
It seems to me that the IBPC and webdelsol are expressing what is in effect a fate accompli., that is the internet is finally getting respect but we don't have the infrastructure in place to guard copy right issues. In the world of print, you have to buy the book to see the poem, but here that is fundamentally different. In fact, there is a movement out there to do away with copyright laws on the internet all together (not that i agree with that either). So, my response is lets get off the fence and make the IBPC page a true publication, lets get an ISSN number, get the issues out on time (that is make the deadline of the 21st of the month), and even submit annually to pushcart. If the poems there are good enough for publishing, lets act that way. s | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29225 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest W.F. -- all of this is still in the discussion phase. I am simply trying to keep people informed that some who have been honored in the IBPC have gone on to find that their poems are considered published and ineligible in the minds of some journals who will not print previously published work. No formal statement has been released by the IBPC people on this matter. It's still being batted back and forth. As it concerns your particular poem, I don't think you should feel bad about this. If the journal did not actively seek assurance from you that the poem received no prior recognition, then you don't owe them anything, even an explanation. It most likely does not matter to them. Those journals to whom it matters usually make public statements about it, and inform their contributors and/or have them sign release forms before they go to print. At this time, and until the issue is settled formally, I wouldn't recommend refusing to participate in the IBPC. There are many markets and journals to whom this is a non-issue, so there will still be an ample supply of places to submit the work even if it does win. Participation in the IBPC doesn't close every other publication venue to you. Also, it is important to note that the IBPC is not the only place affected by this. Other contests, workshops, blogs, personal websites, etc. are also vulnerable if the journal considers work displayed there as "published." No point singling out the IBPC alone as it is not an isolated issue applicable only to them. However, it is good to consider what you might want to do in the future. Writing to the board to express your opinions is also a positive step. But there's not much point in negative moves at this juncture as you might find yourself out in the harbor dumping tea on your own. There's strength in numbers and I will attempt as much as possible to keep everyone informed as we work our way through this. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29226 Registered: 11-1998 |
Yes, W.F., you have the correct e-mail addy. I'm not sure why your mail would be returned. The only thing I can think of is that the IBPC mailbox might be full and is bouncing mail back to the sender. I would wait until tomorrow (a business day) and try again in case no one reads the IBPC mail during the weekend and the box is full. Love, M | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 16 Registered: 03-2008 |
to comment on what steve says above: i don't think the internet should attempt to conform to traditional forms of publication, it needs to find its own form personally i would like to see something like a flickr.com for writing, a place where people (both pro's and amateurs) can "publish" their work, arrange/collect it in "books", discuss it with one another and use it as a platform to post their work elsewhere in an easy way !l. | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 618 Registered: 10-2007 |
Most poetry now and in the future will be "published" on the internet, not in print. To begin with, most people no longer read traditional print forms, so the economic feasibility of those forms has been and is in jeopardy as is expressed by book and magazine sales. Because a poem or any other form of writing has won an honor or has been accepted to be printed in a journal does not necessarily mean its anything better than many pieces that have not been accepted or submitted to them. In fact, much that is written that would not meet their rigorous standards is much more enjoyable to read. Furthermore, the judgement of such is subjective regardless of what anyone may state to the contrary. Obviously, editors of these journals are well aware of their very select and limited readership and are only able to accept what will work for their readership. That is why so much of it is rejected. It must conform to the strict standards of the journal. That is why they request you read their archives to become familiar with what will or will not work. Certainly some semblance of quality should exist in order for writing to be considered average or better, but I'm not convinced editors of print or other select journals or sites constitute the only authority. I believe the process should be more democratic than that. And I believe most people feel that way. Many people who read and write poetry visit various internet sites where people read a wide variety of poetry both professional and amateur, and sometimes "publish" their own in e-books or other similar forms. It's all out there. And some of it does not conform to the traditional standards of what a "good poem" should be. When I see people cite "the craft" I am always amused to find how certain people insist it is this, while others believe it is that. There is not just one "craft" but many, just as there is a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker. The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. Robert Frost | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3638 Registered: 05-2006 |
The existence of Electromagnetism as an archive forum here at WPF poses a problem. This archive does represent a permanent library of poems which have won honors at WPF. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the poems one would like to submit to the most prestigious journals would be highly correlated with the poems that have won honors at WPF. Now there is a lock on Therapeutic Touch, but no lock on Electromagnetism. This means that anybody who knows I workshop here can click on Electromagnetism and immediately access my WPF-honored poems. If that anybody is an editor, with a sampling of my best work on his or her desk, that means that the editor will soon discover that some of the very poems in his or her hands might well be accessible to anyone who does even a modicum of looking. Thus, put simply, the editor and his or her journal loses a good measure of the exclusivity of access that (to the editor) will be make his or her journal more desirable. This is actually more disturbing than the IPBC matter, because -- Laurie excepted -- most of WPF's better poets have far more WPF honors than IPBC wins or places. * * * * * As the proportion of modern poetry that lives and dies on the internet (or at least originates on the net) increases, this problem is going to get worse. I am 61. Only about a third of my entire output as a published writer can be found on the net or was workshopped on any internet site. What about a young poet, say Brianna? Very likely all, or nearly all, or her entire output as a published writer will have some kind of internet origins. Will all her archived workshop poems, stories, and the like be deemed by editors of 2018 or 2028 as already published because they can be easily found in the archive forums of various sites like WPF? I simply don't see any way out of the above difficulty other than (at the very minimum) putting a lock on Electromagnetism so that only WPF registered members can access the archive. This is the minimum protection we can offer our poets. Another protection would be to immediately remove from the archive (with a note indicating that the poem did garner such-and-such an honor) any poem that the poet indicates "is now being submitted to journals online or otherwise." The Draconian alternative would sadly be to discontinue Electromagnetism, or less radically, to automatically delete all poems from the archive after thirty or sixty days. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23193 Registered: 07-2001 |
Me thinks everyone worries too much. I my research on the subject, admitingly three years ago or more, I found a couple of paper pubs that would not accept workshopped poems, and not many more zines. As for award winners, most editors like them, like to publish them. Of ccourse things might be different now, who is too say...but I think the issue is a tempest in a teapot. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29229 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Freddie -- there is no problem with locking down the archives. In fact, steve and I were just discussing that today. He is currently at work, but I will talk to him further about it tomorrow. We can lock it so that only registered members can access it. To the members here at Wild, it would look no different than it does now. The only change is that no one from outside would be able to access it. It's easy enough to do. Dearest Mr. B -- I just checked on some pubs from my rather extensive saved list of online journals at random this afternoon to see what their submission guidelines had to say. Many of them, in fact, the majority say they do not accept previously published work. What is hard to determine is what they consider previously published. Only a few went on to specifically state that they consider as previously published those poems that appear anywhere, on or offline, but they didn't further note whether workshops like Wild fell into that category. Though there were a couple that stated specifically that workshopped poems are acceptable. But it is very hard to tell about the others and their feelings regarding poems displayed at workshops like Wild. Unless you specifically write them to ask, there is nothing in the general submission guidelines that details what is or is not included in the previously published category. So, you may be correct that currently the issue is a tempest in a teapot; however, my feeling from listening in on the streets is that more and more are becoming sensitive to this issue. Personally, I think it's better to prepare ourselves than ignore the topic until it is too late. I'd rather try to prevent problems than to clean them up after they've spilled all over the floor. As I said to Freddie, if all it takes is an archive lockdown to sidestep any issues or controversy, that's small potatoes and easy to accomplish. Love, M | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2150 Registered: 01-2003 |
thank you very much Fred. As you suggested, the archive forum is now locked to only registered users. if you google a poem in there, it will come up but when you click on the link, it gives you a file not found error. thx again, this was an elegant solution s | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1022 Registered: 11-2007 |
Again, "appearing anywhere" can also include sending a finished poem to a friend for comment, or reading it at an open poetry slam. Im not sure where the line can be drawn, on any of it. Locking down the archives is an excellent idea. | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 397 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi All, The issue here is moving toward resolution nicely with its corollary issues, such as locking down archives. How much more there is to examine, time will tell. One thing to point out is that, not only is IBPC a publication, but a very good publication. I will be working on making sure the BAP editors take a look, for instance. Another issue that I have been addressing for over a year now, is the possibility of formatting each poem nicely, and having easier look-up access to each poet's poem, and--furthermore, to have feature pages with links, interviews, and such, similar to the enhanced judges pages that will be forthcoming (on David' schedule hopefully this year or next) for poets who have over time achieved a certain number of wins and places for their poetry. Even though we can forge our own future, and define publication for ourselves, as stated above, if a publication wants exclusivity of your poem, even over your sharing it with your significant other during a pillow reading, never mind on line, that is up to them. Many of what is being touched on here, are corollaries to what I have been bringing up behind the scenes, and the depth of conversation is what I was going to hope for in a conversation of forum reps after I know who is in and who is out, and which boards will be new this year. But, it is priority. We should all be going forward with wisdom, and this is a service that IBPC can provide, an area where IBPC forums can become leaders as we get deeper into the 21st century, and IBPC poets can be empowered to forge their own futures. Coming soon too, for instance: online poet abuse. Yours, Rus | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 398 Registered: 03-2007 |
Please note, that the contact information has changed. The e-mail address ibpc@webdelsol.com was overrun with spam, and became a significant part of the time problem that Gina was experiencing even as she was running out of time to share with us. The new address is ibpc {dot} entries {at sign} gmail {dot} com. Yours, Rus | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2008 |
Thanks Rus and admins and mods for clearing the air. Admittedly, I have quite a trigger finger and when paired with a bad temper . . . | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29230 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Judy -- I believe that no publication would go so far as to restrict poets from sharing poems among themselves or with their families/friends. "Appearing anywhere" normally refers to "in public, in print" (yes, even internet display could be considered in print) and accessible to the public at any time (current issues, back issues, etc.). As to public performances, they are oral and once delivered are only sound waves out in the ozone, i.e., no longer accessible. I don't think any mag has the time or the interest to chase down exclusivity and/or copyright to any of those extremes. But you make a good point. I think mags are going to have to start being very specific about what they mean by "previously published." Perhaps if they get enough queries from writers asking the question, they will include these specifics on their submission pages. Dearest Rus -- thanks for weighing in in an official capacity as a member of the IBPC board. I think calling the IBPC site a "publication" at this point is stretching the definition. As far as I am aware, the IBPC has no ISSN, no true subscriber list of those not connected with it as traditionally defined, and while it has a board of directors, it really has no traditional editorial board making decisions on submissions in the normal manner of most journals and mags. It uses limited term judges instead to decide what is honored and displayed. It could become a "publication" (i.e., journal/mag) if it wanted to, but currently I would put it (and I think most editors would put it) in the contest or competition category. However, just because it is not a traditional journal as normally defined at the moment, that doesn't mean it isn't open to these controversies and issues nor that it isn't considered in the "previously published" category by most editors. It is. And as such, I believe it has a responsibility to formally notify boards/poets who will "compete" under its purview of the fact that work honored and displayed at the site is considered published. It owes its contributors that much so that they do not run into difficulties when trying to place the work that has won in this competition elsewhere in some other print or internet venue. A notice of this displayed at the site could go a long way toward preempting this confusion. I, like you, look forward to a time when the IBPC comes into its own and builds on what it has already accomplished. Again, thanks for posting your thoughts and information. Dearest W.F. -- glad we could clarify things for you. Trigger fingers are as dangerous to those behind the gun as they are to those in front of it. *grin* Love, M | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 399 Registered: 03-2007 |
However, just because it is not a traditional journal as normally defined at the moment, that doesn't mean it isn't open to these controversies and issues nor that it isn't considered in the "previously published" category by most editors. It is. And as such, I believe it has a responsibility to formally notify boards/poets who will "compete" under its purview of the fact that work honored and displayed at the site is considered published. That's what these communications are all about. By the way, these questions come from two IBPC arenas. One is from Lois P. Jones at Mosaic Musings from last year, where she asks IBPC to consider what constitutes the unpublished eligibility of a poem in order that it qualifies for IBPC. I have handed this back to the reps to decide, and behind it a sharing conversation about it--originally to be done on a private rep blog. The other is very similar to the discussion psarked here, and took place at TCP just a month or two ago. All changes to site have to do with David Ayers, who has a big project on his hands with many many changes he is considering. We need to be patient. Yours, Rus | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2151 Registered: 01-2003 |
Dear Rus part of being a publishing venue is making your deadlines. s | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 400 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Steve, David and I also set those deadlines, and we have not yet decided to change the site. Yours, Rus | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2152 Registered: 01-2003 |
Hi the problem is not setting the deadlines but having a different deadline each month. we used to get results on the 20-21st of every month, now it's a lottery. Sometimes 6 weeks after submission, sometimes 5, in the case of november -- 3 months. If you're going to get serious about being a publisher, you can't just 'skip' an issue. The member forums deserve some predictability in when results are posted. s | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23198 Registered: 07-2001 |
Judy wrote: Locking down the archives is an excellent idea. I am opposed. This is like hitting a skeeter with a Sherman tank... Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2153 Registered: 01-2003 |
Gary the archives are not locked to wild members, they are fully accessible. they are only locked to outside search engines or non-members. If someone wants to read them, they just have to join wild.  s | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29232 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Mr. B. -- As steve noted, the lockdown only affected the archives and even so, those archives are still available to any of Wild members seamlessly as it has always been. I'm not sure what objection(s) you have to locking this material away for the protection of our membership. At least at this point, other portions of Wild (with the exception of THERAPEUTIC TOUCH) are still open to reading by the non-member public. This is not the case with many of our peers. For instance, of the twenty member boards currently participating in the IBPC, nine of those (nearly half) are completely locked. You cannot even read any of the material there without registering for membership. At this point, we'd rather not lock all of Wild down, but if it comes to that (for the protection of our membership or other valid reasons), we might have to consider it. At this point, lockdown of the archives hurts no one and helps many. I'm not sure what your objections are, but if you'd like to state them, we will be glad to address the issue. Love, M | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8271 Registered: 12-2003 |
This is quite an interesting thread. I agree with the lock down of the archive forum, yep I do. It comes to my mind in reading this thread that if certain publications are going to broaden their definition of what they consider previously published, that eventually poets who workshop or enter contests will simply quit submitting to those publications, and then where will those publications be? Probably gone... On the flip side, it is possible that more publications will start up that will accept those submissions that other publications will not. I do admit that my knowledge of all things publishing is woefully inadequate, but human nature is such that change is not only in one direction. It will be a sad day for me when poetry is published only on the internet, I so much like to hold the archaic book or magazine in my hands, smell the ink, and worship the words. *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29235 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Kathy -- thanks for stopping in with your thoughts and opinions. I doubt that online workshops or contests will ever disappear entirely. And more and more journals are allowing submission of previously workshopped poems. It's just getting everyone to agree on classification of categories that's difficult at the moment. But the poetry community will resolve that slowly but surely. As to books disappearing or being replaced entirely by the internet, I think that will be far in the future. Especially considering how strong book sales still are. I found this recently. It's based on 2006 sales figures, since 2007 data hasn't been released yet: AAP Reports Sales of Books Totaled $ 24.2 Billion in 2006 New York, NY, May 22, 2007: The Association of American Publishers (AAP) has today released its annual estimate of total book sales in the United States. The report, which uses data from the Bureau of the Census as well as sales data from eighty-one publishers inclusive of all major book publishing media market holders, estimates that U.S. publishers had net sales of $24.2 billion in 2006. Trade sales of adult and juvenile books grew 2.9 percent to $8.3 billion, a compound growth rate of 3.7 percent per year since 2002. The strongest growth in this category came from adult paperback books whose sales rose 8.5 percent on last year to a total of $2.3 billion. Adult hardbound books also had a strong year growing by 4.1 percent to $2.6 billion. Sales of titles for children and young adults (juvenile) fell by 2.0 percent and 0.6 percent for hardbound and paperbound respectively. Over the longer term juvenile books are still performing well, with compound annual growth rates of 5.9 percent for hardbound and 1.6 percent for paperbound. After a bump in 2005, sales of audio books fell 11.7 percent to $182 million, however, compound growth since 2002 still looks healthy at 6.2 percent a year. Religious books had a difficult year with a 10.2 percent fall in sales in 2006. Compound growth is still strong at 7.5 percent per year. Mass market paperbacks saw growth of 4.6 percent in 2006 reaching $1.1 billion. Sales through book clubs fell by 3.0 percent to $640 million. Educational titles had a mixed year; sales of K-12 products (El-Hi) fell by 5.8 percent to $6.2 billion. Higher Education titles did better with sales of $3.5 billion, up 2.8 percent on 2005. For additional information: Tina Jordan, AAP New York (212-255-0200 ext. 263, tjordan@publishers.org). The Association of American Publishers is the national trade association of the U.S. book publishing industry. AAP’s more than300 members include most of the major commercial publishers in the United States, as well as smaller and non-profit publishers, university presses and scholarly societies. AAP members publish hardcover and paperback books in every field, educational materials for the elementary, secondary, postsecondary, and professional markets, scholarly journals, computer software, and electronic products and services. The protection of intellectual property rights in all media, the defense of the freedom to read and the freedom to publish at home and abroad, and the promotion of reading and literacy are among the Association’s highest priorities. With sales in the billions, I highly doubt traditional, hold-them-in-your-hands books are going to be abandoned any time soon. After all, who wants to take a laptop to the beach? All that sand in the keyboard is not good. Not to mention how disastrous it would be to drop it in the bubble bath. Paper and ink books don't need an electrical outlet or recharging. *smile* Love, M | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 17 Registered: 03-2008 |
^i think kathy meant that eventually online publication will in the end prevail over exclusive magazines, simply because when people are confronted between the choice of working+exhibiting their work online or in said magazines they will choose for the former, leaving the later either the option of becoming an even more restricted niche publication or a non-exclusive one. that's how i read it anyways, and i believe she is spot on as for books: nothing can replace the tactile experience of books, not at the moment anyway, so it is highly unlikely they will disappear anytime soon !l. | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1024 Registered: 11-2007 |
and it is sooo hard to curl up with a good laptop. Nor do they take to hot water kindly. I have a whole stash of bathtub books, old friends, all of them swollen from the steam (and that occasional oops in the water), and I wouldnt part with them for all the electronic readers in the world. | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5506 Registered: 08-2003 |
For the record, I was never at Mosaic Musings. I am only on Wild and Pen Shells. I'm not sure about a poem from last year either. When I won first place for February 2008 I asked Bren whether my poem could still be submitted to an editor for publication. I received an answer that it would technically be considered published and thus not eligible by some editors (as M suggests) for publication. I think we just have to query it if we have a poem which has been published by IBPC with individual editors to have their thoughts. I think IBPC holds a grand opportunity for recognition by peers. Likely, they may need to add extra persons to their roster who can help with administrative tasks. Like most of us we are overworked and not just underpaid, we are not paid at all. e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 401 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi the problem is not setting the deadlines but having a different deadline each month. we used to get results on the 20-21st of every month, now it's a lottery. Sometimes 6 weeks after submission, sometimes 5, in the case of november -- 3 months. If you're going to get serious about being a publisher, you can't just 'skip' an issue. The member forums deserve some predictability in when results are posted. s Hi Steve, My seriousness is about being Managing Editor for the InterBoard Poetry Community. And since the eighth, I have addressed several issues for the judges and the forums. I have also distributed service e-mails that reps have had the option of sharing within their forums. I have helped Lois P. Jones invite who may possibly be the esteemed and very timely judge to follow Patricia Smith. I have arranged for interviews for the judges, this after making a contact list that would include all directors, reps, judges, and forum links, including specifically IBPC topic areas, for easy access and response to board needs. I have chased down forum reps to get back to me--not an easy task, and have yet to hear from Moontown or Lit With Kick!, and look at the grief I get at Moontown: http://www.moontowncafe.com/poetry/view_poem.asp?cat_id=1&subcat_id=245&poem_id=57407 --a flame that no one addresses. I have set several things into motion, that I want to come to fruition as soon as they can, schemes unannounceable or not yet completely formulated. I have not been away from my computer other than to be at work or to the grocery or drug store, plus I have cut seriously into my sleep, last night calling India for IBPC, and I have a sleep disorder. My position is that whomever I hand the M.E. baton to, it will be with IBPC running smoothly, with several new features, and at a very good pace--and there will be several eager and capable people who will want the spot. In the three weeks since I have taken the managing editor spot, I have sent the February poems to Fleda and the March ones, and have received both back. The timing is up to David, but look back at the dates since the posting of November and you will see a pretty good spacing--approximating every two weeks, more results being posted. This should continue until when on or about the 7th, I send the April poems to Patricia Smith, and she sends them back. So it is a late complaint at this point. However, it will take just a little more time to get things back onto the schedule. Part of the importance of this, by the way, is that my whole approach is to empower the reps. But how can they be empowered when they are left out, being asked to answer for things out of their controls, and thus complaining themselves? This period will be over very soon. With all the other projects going on, my top priority has been in getting back on schedule. But, I do not think of these schedules as deadlines. I defer to judges and the time they need. For instance, Patricia Smith will be touring, so if she worries about how soon, I will say that is up to her. Bryan Appleyard specifically asked me about time frame when he became judge, and my response was that he probably would not want months getting backed up, but that it was up to him. Ideally, we get to know the judge the first month, even before sending the second month's poems in. Then, by the third month, we really have become "friends" having established a relationship. For instance, Pascale Petit, on her last month, wrote to me how she was looking forward that month to see who the poets were behind the poems. David Kirby checks each month. We all know the great relationship we have with Frank Wilson. Which leads me away from the tangent, and back to a point I want to make on what constitutes publication. We know IBPC gets great visitors who look forward to reading the results, some are us, some the judges we have invited into our community, and there are still others, and not to forget those that surf by without bookmarking. But, who here are Guardian Knights? Those of us who have made (our Sarah Crown's) shortlist at The Guardian's poetry workshop are well-published poets indeed. Then consider what we have thought of as small potatoes: yet some poems on some blogs get dozens of hits per day. With all the stat tools we have, and how thorough and sharp the search engines are becoming, posting on the internet is becoming huge for poetry. So I am not sure some notice needs to be made on the IBPC site, some declaration that IBPC is a publication, but that we all need to recognize that it is, that IBPC, The Guardian and the like can be spectacular "publications", better than many conventional periodicals. Thus the reason I have begun the "behind the scenes" e-mails, so we all get up to speed in the 21st century of poetry. Although, it seems someone may have cut me out of the loop I began--as I was going to look for, but haven't yet tallied how many sites lock search engines out. Where did such a specific number come from? (M?) And if what seems to be the case is so, who would delete me from the e-mail loop that I compiled such that we could all as a group discuss these matters, this after I made it clear that I was going to be circulating this in good time? I am happy that the loop e-mail has brought about the discussion it was designed for, but disheartened that I may be out of that loop. Maybe this isn't so though. By the way, part of that discussion has to include the option of forums allowing posts to truncate away forevermore off the site after a time period. This used to be the case, anyway, at Poets.org, and The Atlantic--there would be no poem on the internet to find a couple months after the last comment in its thread. Yours, Rus | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 402 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Lois, My mistake and apologies. I'm writing without looking things up. It's Lori Kanter. I just checked the past e-mails. She's great, by the way, and deserves recognition for sparking this whole chain of thought within our community. I am correct about the judge work you have done for us, though. Sincere thanks for both your thoughtfulness and effort. yours, Rus | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 403 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi M, At this point, we'd rather not lock all of Wild down, but if it comes to that (for the protection of our membership or other valid reasons), we might have to consider it. At this point, lockdown of the archives hurts no one and helps many. I'm not sure what your objections are, but if you'd like to state them, we will be glad to address the issue. I am going to be looking at the idea of complete lockdown of forums, as some have gone over to. I have already addressed this same issue with one of the reps, a very good board owner, whose forum is altogether closed. She has sent feelers out to possibly go the other way, to unlock more of her forum. Part of the service that IBPC has, is to attract poets to our community. We keep the list of forum links on the sidebar of each page at the IBPC site. We cannot be frustrating poets by having them try to peruse the sites to see where they may want to post or just hang out for a while, and repeatedly being told "This is a private forum: Go Away!" So this aspect must be handled well. Part of being an IBPC forum will be in maintaining shared wisdom in these type areas. A corollary problem is that, for this contest to work properly, we all need to be able to see what we all are doing. Think about it. For instance, one rule is that the poem must have been workshopped at the site within the previous month. Something else is that all poems must be eligible--a caution on elitism--to keep fairness within the forum. Now, we know we give leeway on the time aspect as a rep can have the power to say that this poem will go next month for some reason--and it is difficult to prove favoritism--but what if a site continuously broke the spirit of these guidelines? How would the rest of us know? See no evil. ~~~~~~ Hi e, I think IBPC holds a grand opportunity for recognition by peers. Likely, they may need to add extra persons to their roster who can help with administrative tasks. Like most of us we are overworked and not just underpaid, we are not paid at all. Part of what I am assessing right now is who of the directors are willing to do what. One problem is: what if David got run over by a bus? He cannot be replaced. What if I did? You are the one person closest to the inside here (beside Gary who has sworn off it), who I know could feel her way around like I am now. But, I have been looking into the window for a couple years now, before walking in through the front door this month. But you see? From your comment, you understand this much. You come from more than an administrative POV, now, but one of service. You are where I was when I invited Dave Brinks, and then Frank Wilson and Sarah Crown. I have told you something no one else knows, for instance, like with me and Gina. It does not take long to get empowered when you're both savvy and giving. Yours, Rus | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2154 Registered: 01-2003 |
Dear Rus No matter how you rationalize it, a deadline is still a deadline, and the IBPC hasn't been close to meeting any deadline for well over a year. I know you've taken on quite a task, but I think you need to consider the resistance you're going to get when the track record is so poor. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that David Ayers has put the IBPC at the lower end of his priority list and that is where the bottle neck lies. Even when were dealing with recent issues, the emails from him directly contradicted the information you were posting on our site. If another contest were to come along and offer similar exposure and judges that the IBPC offers, i'm sure many of us would change. Just because the IBPC is the only game in town doesn't mean it will always be so. Let's face it Rus, the IBPC needs the boards to exist, not the other way around. s | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29242 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Rus -- the way I came by the number of sites that are closed except to their own members was merely to click on the links to all those sites from the IBPC page. Nine of the 20 took me to a screen that says I have to register as a member in order to view anything. Not just to post, but to read. Those entire sites are closed to non-members, including IBPC information. The only thing we have locked down is our own archives. This does not prevent people from accessing the rest of Wild, including but not limited to the IBPC forum here. Before 2005, we did not even have archives. It was not ever a condition of IBPC membership that we maintain archives (why should the IBPC care if we maintain archives that are unrelated to the IBPC?) or that we have a totally open forum. And since nine of the participating member boards are totally locked except to their own members, it doesn't seem that it is a condition even now. I don't see what Wild's archive lockdown and our making choices about our own forums has to do with the IBPC. Members may access everything, new members are still welcome, and no one is being locked away from the IBPC-related information here, unlike other IBPC participating boards. This information is still accessible for anyone to read. Even given that, however, I don't think it's the IBPC's call to tell or suggest to administrators how they should run and operate their own forums for the protection of their own membership. I believe those kinds of decisions should remain a site owner's choice. Love, M | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 621 Registered: 10-2007 |
This is a very interesting thread, I'm glad I chimed in. And I don't mind being ignored either. Maybe I just don't fit the mold. The statistics are impressive, but if so much print is selling why is it that so many bookstores are closing. Is everyone buying books online? I agree holding a book to read is much better than the electronic alternative. Certainly people still read books, but in numbers of readers I have my doubts about an increase. And in the future I would think more readers will read electronically. If it doesn't come to pass that's ok. There is an interesting article concerning these matters if anyone is interested in reading it: http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2007/10/in_praise_of_online_journals.html#more The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. Robert Frost | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29243 Registered: 11-1998 |
Sorry, Walter. You are not being ignored. I just have all my fingers and toes engaged here discussing IBPC matters. Yes, it is very interesting info about book sales and such. Instead of that info getting buried here in a thread that is focusing on the IBPC, perhaps you'd like to start another thread to discuss books and electronic alternatives? I'm sure it would be of interest to Wild's members. You'd probably get a quite lively discussion going. Love, M | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 404 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Steve, The information on when Fleda would be traveling came from my e-mails with her. What I did not know, as I told Fleda that we would try to get March's poems to her on the 6th, was that the February poems had yet to be sent. Fleda received the March poems around the 10th, however, and I sent notice to each rep that this was the case. Fleda then e-mailed me and wondered if she was calling the months the same as I was. This is when I discovered that February's had not been sent. Step back and think of the dates too. I was not directly sent any of the poems. I asked the other directors to get them to me and that I would take care of getting us back on schedule. And again, because you want to be insistent, I will: ther is no deadline. But, back to the contradiction. I hit my palm against my forehead when I noticed that David had miscontrued my communication and contradicted what I had announced. What else could I do. Now, what about the delays that go back before I enter the scene? There are things I know now that are not for publication here, not for the forums reps either. There is someone who had stepped in to help, who was slow in responding. Enough said. That person is good for us, by the way. Let's go back over a year. Gina had been trying to get a replacement, someone who could step in. She tried multiple ways of doing this. Her time was getting short. The November delay created issues that she could not quickly respond to. In early March, it was just about decided that IBPC would have to take a break. I knew then that I was the only one who could pick up the ball, and I stepped in. As to David. Count on your fingers the people who are doing overtime for IBPC. He's one. I'm two. Lois is now three. By the way, I just sent an important e-mail off to David and Gina. Gina is still queen and in the loop. If another community service comes along that offers what IBPC has, and forums decide to quit IBPC and go there, then so be it. There will be more forums. Remember too, we do this for nothing, which is what another set of forum community directors would get. Consider: I don't need any of this. I have many other projects that are on hold right now. Like I say, the criticism is a little late. But I see from where you are coming from, it is also off target, and a little unfair. While you're complaining about things, I am doing something about them, as is David and Lois. Not to mention Fleda Brown, Patricia Smith, Frank Wilson, and so on and so forth. Yours, Rus (Message edited by rusbowden on March 31, 2008) | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 406 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi M, Please don't misunderstand. I am well aware that I am posting here in a forum that has not closed down, and does not seem to want to either. My posting about what may come as future guidelines or rules, is not to be corrective or critical, but informative and something for discussion. I challenge nothing but your thoughtfulness. Thanks for letting me know how you counted. I was hoping for such as response. You must be a surfer nerd like me. I had no idea there was another. Yours, Rus | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 407 Registered: 03-2007 |
How did I overwrite the first post in the thread, one I did not make? | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2155 Registered: 01-2003 |
Rus I don't think anybody is getting paid, i'm certainly not and neither is M. What I'm trying to say and I guess I'm doing it poorly is this: Before you and David start sending out emails to the participating boards about how they should operate in respect to their IBPC membership, you should spend the small amount of time and energy you have available getting the core process of the IBPC back to running somewhat smoothly. You are taking over representing an organization that has little credibility and you should be putting your efforts into restoring the reputation of who you represent instead of worrying about how poems are displayed on the various boards. By doing so, you only weaken the credibility that existed before your communication. We understand that the IBPC is a volunteer operation, but so are the 20 boards who submit. s | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5507 Registered: 08-2003 |
Gulp, I do appreciate your mention of me but I only suggested some possible judges that IBPC might consider. Of course if any of the judges I know are chosen by IBPC or accept to judge, my work would not be considered for IBPC. Anyway, I just want to clear my name out because I'm getting nervous over here....  Just trying to help on the side lines with possibilities. I seem to have my fingers in too many pots! All best! Lois www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 408 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Steve, I should be doing what I am doing, not what you would be doing if you were doing it. One of the first things I did was to remind all the forums that they are to post the winning poems onto their sites, that many say nothing at all, and that some are posting only the link to the IBPC site. The method to my madness is to see how March goes. We all know now what we are suppose to be doing and why. My target on this issue is to watch how April goes. April is key. We will be back on schedule, and operating well with whoever is in. After that, I will begin to know who's in and who's out, and can invite the forums waiting. Right now we count 21, one over the limit. But, the last two months have seen only 20-something poems each for entries. We should be around 40, which is where we were last spring. In other words, this issue of posting the poems on the forums is one that needs to be taken care of asap. The poets deserve it. Yours, Rus | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29245 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Rus -- I think the reason that your post ended up at the top of the thread was because I was posting at the same time and the system burped. Wild does that occasionally. No need to be concerned. I have removed the duplicate post. I do thank you for your concern about misunderstandings. I'm not misunderstanding. I think it is fine to put these things up for discussion. I was merely giving you my opinions as a site administrator in return. I do believe that how a site operates should be the decision of the owner. As long as we hold up our end of the responsibilities as they pertain to the IBPC, all other non-IBPC-related decisions in connection with operating a site and whether a site is closed or open is really an owner's judgment call. I think you might stir up a hornet's nest of controversy if site owners believe the IBPC is stepping in to tell them what to do. Discussions are good and I would frame them as such. Things could get touchy if site owners misinterpret these discussions as directives or mandates. Love, M | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2156 Registered: 01-2003 |
Dear Rus this is the last thing i'm going to say on this. Don't you think it's a red flag that only 20 poems are submitted that something isn't right? at least 13 out of 20 boards are so disillusioned that they no longer participate (on avg). isn't it interesting the the decline coincides with the problems that IBPC had in getting results posted on time? Can't you see it's wrong to badger the boards to honor their end of an agreement when you have not been honoring yours? I'm just trying to give you some advice here, ok? s | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 409 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Lois, That's all it takes, and it is a lot. You helped out where you could this month, and we should all be grateful. You interrupted me insistantly, because you had a contribution you knew you could make. We then worked together to get you to where I have been on the e-mailing lately. Keep your fingers crossed. That's part of it. I love that someone else knows the magic way that our judge's are invited. There are other things I look to, such as web presence. Judges who are seeking out the web, may already know of us, and understand completely what they are being asked to do. Fleda, for instance, and Ethelbert both answered me first day. I remember Bryan Appleyard sending me an e-mail within minutes asking "Yes. What do you want me to do?" or something to that affect. Note that all judges for the past however long have their own web sites. They are savvy. Note too, that I have, for instance, invited the Barakas who have their own web site, but do not attend to it themselves, same with Nikki Giovanni who also declined. In other words, I thought one thing and then found another. You start to be able to tell. Yours, Rus | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 622 Registered: 10-2007 |
Thank you M, as usual you are gracious and kind to your members, even ones like me who do not get as involved as others. You run a very good site here. I must admit I had no idea I would be stuck in the middle of this giant controversy. Definately was not my intention. I hate controversy. I'm departing this one now. I'll start another thread probably soon. The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. Robert Frost | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 410 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Steve, If something like a reminder is going to cause some boards to drop out, then they probably should. Like I say, it will give me room to know who to add and when. I am not badgering anyone. You seem to be badgering me about this subject though. I have answered you now multiple times. Yes, I am managing editor. As soon as I get things running and replace myself, then there will be someone else to badger--and flame I might add. Did you see that Moontown link? Whatever reason for whatever resistance arises from here through when results are posted for April, I will try to be as understanding as I can, and see what the root of the problem is. Also, I put About Poetry Forum up as exemplary, because they archive the poems, research the judges, blog post, and so forth. I want to see more of that type off thing. We can all be creative with the contributions we can make to our own community. The poets deserve it. They are why we are here. Yours, Rus (Message edited by rusbowden on March 31, 2008) | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5508 Registered: 08-2003 |
Hi Rus! Thank you for your kind acknowledgements. I suggested a judge to you and you asked me to write him using your form letter. I did that. I was and am very happy to help! I have a couple of contacts who might make good judges. That's about the extent of it. I am not part of the IBPC staff nor do I wish to be. I respect the IBPC's mission and it has been a great pleasure to be recognized. Thanks again and I do hope all is resolved with IBPC. You are doing well to streamline and promote the site. I'm sure it's a very large task! e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3643 Registered: 05-2006 |
One possible reason for faltering or decreasing participation in the monthly IBPC poetry contest may be that people are simply bored with same-old/same-old and wish to move on to other more exciting things. That's how people are. One of the greatest indictments of virtue is that it is boring. I keep advising God: "Dude, reinvent those ten commandments. Add a little pzazz." Does God listen? Nah. Same old Heaven. Same old Hell. No racing stripes on angels' wings. Brimstone worn down to the cords. So . . . my advice [POEMLAND SECURITY HIGHLY ADVISES YOU NOT TO TAKE THIS ADVICE.] is to come up with new, exciting things for IBPC member forums to engage in. [POEMLAND SECURITY THINKS THE IDEA LONGWORTH WILL NOW PRESENT IS REALLY STUPID.] How about a poem auction? Set up a Pay Pal account, and have each forum submit three poems. Then put all the poems up for auction. Have people go to the IBPC website and bid. Make it so you can't "stuff the ballot box". The top winners of the auction get to keep a goodly share of the money, and the rest goes to IBPC operating expenses. Or, how about this? [POEMLAND SECURITY THINKS THE FOLLOWING IDEA IS NOT ONLY STUPID, BUT DANGEROUS.] Why not have themed contests? How about a best poem contest around the theme of genocide, such as is occurring in Sudan? Then have the winning poem testify on the floor of the United Nations. Derf Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 411 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Fred, We will see how things go once we are all back on the normal monthly schedules. From the looks of this thread, one thing it is hard to call IBPC is boring. On the serious side of the new features . . . there is a co-operative high-quality blog in the planning stages with the working title "Voices in Synergy: The InterBoard Poetry Community". We have our competition. More powerful than competition is cooperation. Yours, Rus | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3644 Registered: 05-2006 |
"More powerful than competition is cooperation." Three billion years of evolution suggest otherwise. * * * * * Rus . . . I'll let you in on a secret. I heard this straight from Lucifer. He says he was cast out of Heaven for laughing. * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on March 31, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 412 Registered: 03-2007 |
You mean, no one's ever co-operated in the previous billion years? Visit Alfie Kohn's site: http://alfiekohn.com/index.html Yours, Rus | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3647 Registered: 05-2006 |
No, I mean lighten up. Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 413 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Fred, I had already put in the link to Alfie Kohn, when you edited in the Lucifer comment. But it is time we all communicated and felt part of the process. Like I should be able to ask you, would you format the poems for the judge this month, and no big deal, if you had time you would understand and say yes. If you were going to a reading by a super poet this week end, you might think to me ask what might be open for judging terms, in case you get a chance to ask. It's not that difficult when you feel part of the process, and I think that's why I come across as having to lighten up, as if there is severity to everything, when I am only answering each question and speaking to each concern. Hopefully there will be less negative perception and less dire concern of IBPC in the near future, so my responses won't go there. Yours, Rus (Message edited by rusbowden on April 01, 2008) | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9153 Registered: 07-2002 |
It's funny, this big, long thread about the IBPC, and to be perfectly honest, I would continue to write and critique at Wild even if we were a lone site in the wilderness. It's not that I don't care about the larger poetry world, it's just that I'm utterly not interested in the competition. I want to write the best possible work that I can write, hone my voice, and practice my craft. It's stressful enough for me trying to get my novels to publication and having no choice but to rely on external factors and the curse of subjectivity in that pursuit. Poetry is my safe haven from dealing from the relentless submission and rejection process. So I don't write with the IBPC in mind. I write what I am passionate about or where the random paths of my odd brain take me. It's not that I never think about the IBPC or publication, it's just rare that I even submit any work. And only then because there are a few net publications whose editors I either know or highly respect. I am glad that there is an IBPC organization, because of the terrible double standard that exists in the poetry world. It rankles that the net based poetry is considered the ugly step-child of poetry. To me, that is snobbery. Nothing more, nothing less. As one who has had little to do with the IBPC, my two cent's worth is probably not even worth that, but my main thought is that the IBPC needs to have a specifically defined mission moving into the future. Does it want to be a publication? A clearinghouse to encourage internet poetry? The repository of the best/cutting edge of net based poetry? Perhaps it could be any or all of those. I will continue to write and learn in my little corner of the internet. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 414 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi LJ, The publication aspect of IBPC is defined by the times. We may now consider IBPC a publication by definition, not by proclamation. There has been talk in the past of issuing print anthologies of placers and such, but that is not now being discussed, altough something I have been comtemplating on a very back burner since the 8th. In this direction, I have been working on a project to find who placed with which poems and from where, which forums have had what placers, and so forth, a master list. The most immediately expansive vision of my message, however, first thing written to the reps on the day I began, is that I want to move soon to the co-operative blog. But, also, as the judge's pages become enhanced, and we go to adding poets' page, the site as a whole becomes more of a resource not only for us in the community, but about us. This is a glance at the mission we are on right at this point. Yours, Rus | ||
| SarahJ
Intermediate Member Username: sarahj Post Number: 397 Registered: 02-2007 |
Hi - I didn't have time to read through all this yet, but I have to say I too have second thoughts about having poems go to IBPC if placing there means the poem is "published." That said, I've placed at IBPC a handful of times, and always went on to submit the poem without any qualms at all. will try to come back to this... the rain in my purse | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2157 Registered: 01-2003 |
Dear Sarah so have we all submitted elsewhere after placing ;) s | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3654 Registered: 05-2006 |
The more that the IBPC -- acting no doubt out of a spirit of humility and cooperation -- trumpets its winners as published, and uses the marketing machine of Web Del Sol to turn that lone trumpet into an entire bugle corps, the more likely it will be that editors -- flying randomly around the Net like moths around the Muse's porch light -- will run into the same poems that are sitting on their desks, crying "publish me!" in their little 8-1/2" x 11" voices. These editors will shout in unison: "This aint' gonna work on Maggie's farm no more." Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 416 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Fred, And it has taken a lot of work to get the IBPC to the point, where people are hearing the trumpet. All those judges for all those months, the news articles, the e-mails, and so forth. But the trumpet call has not been "This is published!"--it has been "We are here!" And this good exposure may really have just begun. Remember, one reason for the IBPC is to give such exposure to the best poems we have shared in our online workshops. Now we are becoming better read than many if not most periodicals. The issue of locking down poems, something the IBPC certainly will not do (as we attract readers, not dissuade them), has been creeping up on us these past several years. No matter what the standard definition of "publication" has always been, this is what we are involved with in 2008. Remember, the trumpet call here today is to the poets, that no matter how small potatoes IBPC is or is not at this times, the times have changed significantly, because poetry reading has. Many publications do not want your poem posted even on your own blog 10-total-hits-by-accident-per-day blog. Yours, Rus | ||
| Laura Polley
Valued Member Username: lpolley Post Number: 108 Registered: 06-2006 |
Okay, some thoughts: First, I have won twice at IBPC. These poems are searchable and available to anyone simply by googling my name. They will, as far as I can tell, never go away, and I consider them published, out of respect for magazines' right-of-first-refusal. However, as M well knows, I have withdrawn at least 3 poems over the last few months from consideration for IBPC (from two different boards) because I am putting a book together and need to pursue as many prior print credits as I can. (Or publication in online journals.) This is a stepping stone that makes book editors see your work as "vetted"--thus enhancing your chances of securing a publisher. I can't afford to give away (which is how I feel about it) poems to the IBPC which are, by nature of being nominated, likely to be the very poems that have the best chance of being published by journals. From my talks with editors of various journals, I understand that the going definition of "published" is any print OR web appearance that results from a JURIED process of selection to appear there. This would include contests (and IBPC) but not workshops or blogs. Still, I think it's tacitly understood that posting more than an excerpt of your poem on a blog is a bad idea if you want to submit that poem to print editors. I won't take that risk. I have worked on this book for two years under great duress. I have written to Gina (over a year ago, and with NO response) asking about this dilemma and what the IBPC can do for me--that is, what is my incentive to send to IBPC at all? Of course the recognition from peers and judges is awesome, but I have not garnered any useful higher profile because of my two wins, nor has anyone appeared to notice my poems who is in a position to enhance my future prospects as a publishing poet. (I did, however, notice that my abecedarian poem from 2006 IBPC has cropped up in its entirety on a couple of blogs and on About Poetry, without my permission, thanks to its appearance on IBPC. I don't even have a clue what my rights are on this. Isn't this MY poem? Don't I have a say in where it gets reprinted??? Does anyone have advice?) It seems to me that, unfortunately, IBPC is merely helping put my work up for grabs, without providing any real benefit to me. I would think it would be IBPC's responsibility to make clear that these poems are the property of the poet, and to help pursue pirates who "lift" from IBPC's pages. That would be the least IBPC could do as the host of a poet's work. It does hearten me to hear Rus say that he will be talking to BAP editors. THAT would be worth this whole experience. Again, though, IBPC would have to have official webzine status for that to bear fruit, I would think. Second, I am aware (and would like to point out) that poems previously published (including at IBPC, I hope) CAN appear in a published book, just not in current journals or zines. I hope (perhaps naively?) that my two IBPC publications may serve as credits when the time comes to submit my book to publishers. I don't think this is a minor issue at all. I have had many sleepless nights trying to fit IBPC into my strategy for successful publishing. Publishing is extremely important to me, and so far, I haven't been able to perceive any benefits from IBPC publishing that outweigh the rather gratuitous risks. I think all of this has to be said, because this poet, at least, simply can't afford IBPC at this time. And I don't think the withdrawal of submissions is IBPC's goal. But that's what the current situation leads to. Laura | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29482 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laura -- thank you for outlining your feelings and opinions regarding this matter. As you probably know, I stand with you on every point you have made. What you may not know is that I am currently working behind the scenes to try to resolve this issue to everyone's satisfaction. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will be successful, only that I wanted you and everyone to know this is not a dead issue no one cares about or is working on. I have asked for a speedy resolution and am hoping that my requests will be honored. I will broadcast those resolutions as soon as I am made aware of them. As to your question regarding whether your poems that have received recognition in the IBPC or been published by a journal can then go on to appear in your own book, the answer is a resounding YES. You will need to put together what is called an Acknowledgements page. On that page, you will list every poem that will appear in the book that has been published by a journal or received other recognition. If you look in the books of most published poets (not self-published, but rather published by an independent press), you should see an example of an Acknowledgements page. Once something is printed by a journal (or in this case, the IBPC), if you have agreed to first rights or one time rights, then all copyrights for your work revert to you. Which means you are then free to do with it as you wish, so long as you acknowledge the publication that first printed the work, or organization (IBPC) that recognized it. I hope that answers your question, and I hope that knowing I'm still working behind the scenes on the IBPC issue brings you some measure of comfort. Love, M | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Advanced Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 1432 Registered: 01-2006 |
If all this is true, can I still be considered for a Nobel? It worries me. ad | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29489 Registered: 11-1998 |
Ah, put your worries aside, ad. In addition to working with the IBPC behind the scenes, I have, of course, been talking with the Nobel Prize committee about you. I have been singing your praises, but they remain skeptical. I think it was something about your conscience not fitting or your pants not fitting, or something like that. Oh, well -- what do you expect from that crowd anyway? Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3777 Registered: 05-2006 |
When I purchase a book of poetry from a poet of some stature, I expect that most of the poems will have been published previously in well-regarded journals. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Laura Polley
Valued Member Username: lpolley Post Number: 109 Registered: 06-2006 |
M, Thank you for your encouraging reply to my post. I do appreciate all of the hard work you do at Wild, and what you're doing on behalf of poets to help resolve the IBPC issue. You don't have to do this, and I am grateful. M and Fred, I also expect a chunk of poems in books to have already appeared elsewhere. That wasn't my question--I simply wonder if IBPC will "count" as one of those acknowledgements. I plan to use it, but I'm not sure if a print publisher will regard that as a valid credit or not. Such ambiguity about IBPC's nature is one of its inherent flaws, one that I would think could be easily corrected by a greater commitment on IBPC's part to encourage and widen dialogue with print media editors. Why shouldn't IBPC try to bridge the print and web gap a little more? Still, the fact that both of you have this expectation of prior publications when you read a poetry book only underscores my other points. (Are you listening, IBPC?) Clearly a poet aspiring to a book must publish the book's poems as widely as possible before seeking a publisher. There's the rub. Best, Laura | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 143 Registered: 03-2008 |
I think the point is to make this supposed "publication" more valuable in some way -- let me beat that horse for a second. There have been many great suggestions. Can I admit that there are some publications I've been a part of that I no longer really mention? So why should I be any less judgemental about my appearance at IBPC? Before anyone gets mad, let me just say -- "hypothetically, if this were actually true" I would again hypothetically feel like I'm being told "THIS IS A GOOD REPUTABLE PUBLISHER, yep you better believe it." And we Texans don't much cop to that kinna notion. Sorry again to the poor dying horse. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29500 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laura -- points understood and agreed with. Something must be done and soon. I rub my head a lot about this whole issue. In fact, I'm nearly bald as a result. But I won't stop pushing until I get an answer that at least has the potential to take these important points into account. Dearest WF -- It's not the mere mention of publications that's really at issue here. It's that if you reprint any poem that has been previously published by a legit pub who's secured first rights from you (especially if they are still around to complain about it and even if they're not), it's understood that you will make mention in print (whether that be in print as in hardcopy or in print on a computer screen if the second publisher is an internet pub) via an acknowledgement of some kind that they were the first publisher of that piece. That's what first rights presumes. Besides that, it's just good manners. No one expects you to go around making mention of every little nook and cranny that your work has ever appeared in if you are not reprinting those pieces that fall into this category ( an acknowledgements page ain't no resume -- *LOL* ). Just to be on the safe side, I'd acknowledge the IBPC too, though I don't put them in the publication category. You're protecting the second publisher too when you acknowledge properly. In fact, the second publisher usually requires it so they don't get slapped by the first publisher. This rights thing is probably the major reason most pubs don't accept previously published work. It's not really so much that they don't want to print work that has appeared in other places. It's that they don't want to get into copyright hassle issues and they don't want to chase after authors making sure that those authors have retained copyright (i.e., didn't sign everything away with the first publisher) and/or acknowledge properly. If you just refuse to accept previously published work, you bypass that whole messy business. This, of course, does not apply to book/chapbook publishers. They expect and are prepared to handle previously published work. Me tell a Texan what to do? I may be crazy, but I'm not insane. I just put this information out there. It's up to everyone to inform him/herself and take it from there as it regards their own personal situation. Love, M | ||
| Rus Bowden
Intermediate Member Username: rusbowden Post Number: 424 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Laura, You said: From my talks with editors of various journals, I understand that the going definition of "published" is any print OR web appearance that results from a JURIED process of selection to appear there. This would include contests (and IBPC) but not workshops or blogs. Still, I think it's tacitly understood that posting more than an excerpt of your poem on a blog is a bad idea if you want to submit that poem to print editors. I won't take that risk. I have worked on this book for two years under great duress. I have written to Gina (over a year ago, and with NO response) asking about this dilemma and what the IBPC can do for me--that is, what is my incentive to send to IBPC at all? Of course the recognition from peers and judges is awesome, but I have not garnered any useful higher profile because of my two wins, nor has anyone appeared to notice my poems who is in a position to enhance my future prospects as a publishing poet. (I did, however, notice that my abecedarian poem from 2006 IBPC has cropped up in its entirety on a couple of blogs and on About Poetry, without my permission, thanks to its appearance on IBPC. I don't even have a clue what my rights are on this. Isn't this MY poem? Don't I have a say in where it gets reprinted??? Does anyone have advice?) If you put a poem that won or placed in the IBPC competition in a book, no one at this point is going to call you on not mentioning IBPC in the acknowledgements. It would be nice, however, to get word out in this way, drawing a little more attention, one reader at a time, to the works of the IBPC poets. Thus, the idea is to attract readers, not hide, the winning poetry. All IBPC forums are required to post your poem in their forum if it wins or places in IBPC. This part gets you noticed by the other IBPC poets, and read. Because the nature of the relationship of poetry to the web has changed, we are planning, but have not decided upon, making special IBPC pages for the most frequent winners and placers. We are also planning spiffing up how the poems are presented on the site, and looking at making the poems easily searchable by poet, for instance. We are recognizing that an IBPC placement is in fact a place where the poem will live, be searched, and be read relatively frequently. No longer is IBPC only the place for poets who have had trouble getting their poems published in the best print periodicals, but a strong and legitimate choice for well-published poets in and of itself. The profile of IBPC has risen, and so this discussion has come about. Through these processes and more, each poet should be able to garner a "useful higher profile.". We IBPCers should be both recognizing and leading the way of our own destiny in this sense. Yours, Rus | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29508 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laura -- I missed addressing this part of your question: (I did, however, notice that my abecedarian poem from 2006 IBPC has cropped up in its entirety on a couple of blogs and on About Poetry, without my permission, thanks to its appearance on IBPC. I don't even have a clue what my rights are on this. Isn't this MY poem? Don't I have a say in where it gets reprinted??? Does anyone have advice?) According to my understanding of the IBPC and copyright law, and barring any formal statement from any IBPC rep to the contrary, when you have agreed to enter into the IBPC, you have given the IBPC the right to display the poem should it win honors and, by virtue of the rules of engagement with the IBPC, you have also given the right to display the honored poem to every board that also participates in the IBPC (not just the board who submitted your work). But that is it. Again, another assumption on my part, but since the IBPC has NOT specified what rights they are requesting, I'd say the default is first rights, non-exclusive. Which means that the rights revert back to you upon display of the poem at the IBPC site (and other boards) and that the poem is then yours to reprint as you wish. More importantly, NO other board not connected with the IBPC, nor any blog, nor any other website or print publication has the right to display your poem WITHOUT your permission. As holder of the copyright, you have the right to engage in legal action against them (though this is costly and probably not worth your effort). At the very least, you have the right to write to those individuals who are displaying your poem without your permission and demand that they remove it from display immediately. I hope that clarifies this issue. And if anyone knows further information about this or exactly what rights the IBPC is requesting for these competition poems, I encourage you write to me privately and/or to post that information and correct my inaccurate assumptions. Love, M | ||
| Laura Polley
Valued Member Username: lpolley Post Number: 110 Registered: 06-2006 |
Dear Rus, Thank you for your attentiveness to my concerns. I still have them, but it does say something that you are so thoughtful about addressing these issues. M, I do realize that I gave my poems to the forums by virtue of allowing nomination to IBPC. No problem there. I guess what I'm worrying about is probably unfounded. Still, it makes me nervous... Rus, I'd like to point out something which might be of interest to you, since it gives insight into the mind of one of your past judges. When I was in Atlanta in 2007 for AWP, I introduced myself to David Kirby, and thanked him for choosing my poem as an IBPC winner a few months before. He had to hurry to sign books, but he did make a comment, which I will paraphrase roughly here: "It's really nice to meet an IBPC poet, because when you're judging these Internet things, you never really know who these poets are, or anything about them. You never get a sense of connection..." So, I think the idea about having personal pages for the winning poets is a very good one, not just for the poets but for the judges and the forum readers as well. This way a feeling of interpersonal communication might be fostered, rather than a strange, one-way message that never "lands." I think if I were a judge I'd like to know more about the poets I thought were writing good stuff. As a poet, I'd even want my e-mail address on my page, so that future dialogues with judges, readers, editors, etc., however unlikely, could be possible. Thank you again, Rus, for listening and responding. And M, as always, thank you for unwavering support. Cheers, Laura | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29522 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laura -- no, your concerns are not unfounded and you have every right to feel the way you do. Since you asked that question here in public, I was taking the opportunity to address it not only to you, but to anyone who reads this thread and who might also have similar questions and concerns about copyright issues. It concerns me enormously that your abecedarian poem has appeared on blogs without your permission. I wanted you to know that this is in violation of your copyright and I wanted to make sure others knew that as well, whether they face similar issues now or at some point in the future. We all have to think about these things and knowing what our rights are is important in deciding what we intend to do about it and how we can or should proceed. Love, M |
