| Author | Message | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8894 Registered: 07-2002 |
[Reposted from my blog today--all thoughts/discussion welcome.  ] In my daily poetry reading and critique, I offered the following to a poet: "Like any art, poetry is meant to communicate something between the writer and the reader. Poets must choose a path between plain telling and metaphorical showing. Tip the balance towards telling, and the poetry risks becoming banal, 'hallmark'. Tip the balance toward metaphor and the poem risks falling into individual metonymy--associations that have meaning only for the poet." Metonymy, like metaphor is a figure of speech. But where metaphor compares, metonymy associates. From the wikipedia article on metonymy: <blockquote>"the metaphorical phrase "fishing for information", transfers the concept of fishing into a new domain. If someone is "fishing" for information, we do not imagine that he or she is anywhere near the ocean, rather we transfer elements of the action of fishing (waiting, hoping to catch something that cannot be seen) into a new domain (a conversation). Thus, metonymy works by calling up a domain of usage and an array of associations (in the example above, boats, the ocean, gathering life from the sea) whereas metaphor picks a target set of meanings and transfers them to a new domain of usage."</blockquote> Both can be effective poetic tools. Both relate disparate concepts to create a third and enhanced meaning. But when metonymy employs personal associations that do not have a cultural or linguistic referent, then the reader is locked out of the life of the poem. I am reminded of an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation (Darmok)in which Picard and the Enterprise encounter a race of beings who speak using metaphor and metonymy. Though the 'universal translator' translates their words, their words have no intrinsic meaning for the Enterprise crew as they are entirely based on shared cultural meaning and association. (For a good example of this, there is a lexicon developed from that episode here.) It is interesting that while the discussions of this episode describe the aliens as speaking in metaphor, in fact they are using associations rather than direct comparisons, which in my mind leans toward metonymy. Another interesting slant on metonymy is seen in Kristina Chew's article ""Fractioned Idiom: Poetry and the Language of Autism". In it, she discusses autistic language as a highly refined, individual metonymy. As Chew relates: <blockquote>"In metonymy, one thing is related to another because those two things just so happened to occur in close succession to each other. So, for a while, "sushi" meant "bike ride" to my son Charlie because I had one day bought him sushi for lunch after he had been on a bike ride and not (metaphorically) because of a resemblance between the wheels of his bike and the seaweed-edged rounds of sushi)."</blockquote> In order for Chew to make sense of Charlie's metonymic association between sushi and bicycle, she had to enter into his world and share the event that created the association in the first place. This is also the case with 'private jokes' between people, that relate individual experiences to a linguistic cue that recreates the event. My husband only has to say to me 'mushrooms' and it evokes a college experience involving a camp fire, senior week, and sneaking into Super Wegmans barefoot to buy marshmallows. The association is personal and idiosyncratic. Poetry that relies on highly personal comparisons (metaphor) and associations (metonymy) create difficulty for the reader because he or she was not present to share the events that created the association. Thus, highly individualized language may make for an effective emotional catharsis or personalized gift, but it may not succeed as art simply because it fails to communicate. Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 22393 Registered: 07-2001 |
Lisa, hi. Smiles. Gary | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3306 Registered: 05-2006 |
Well said, Lisa. I've encountered many poems that rely heavily on a device called monotony. I often read those poems aloud when it's very late and Ambien has been ineffective. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 3039 Registered: 10-2005 |
Lisa- I've been thinking about this subject myself lately. Then came across this series by CE Chaffin in the Meltic Review. Though no longer accepting submissions this zine has some great resources to explore. Here is an article on what he calls existential trends in what is now called post-modern poetry. http://www.melicreview.com/cgi-bin/ess_archive.cgi?iss03.cechaffin.01 -Laz | ||
| Judy Thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 797 Registered: 11-2007 |
good stuff, there Laz. I kept nodding, saying, oh yeah, that's it. One of the largest difficulties beginning (and some not so beginning) poets encounter is, how personal is too personal? They write about their brother (name, age, shoe size) now dying (in great detail) of leukemia (which kind, which hospital), and how sad they are. There seems to be a feeling that, if I do this, it's enough. Mine is, if you do this, I will never get past the title. The more intimate detail of a strictly personal nature you add to a poem, the less a reader has to do to get involved with it. I may feel sorry for my friend with the dying brother named Luke, but that huge amount of detail has turned me into a bystander observing rather than a participant in the poem. And being a participant in that piece, or at the very least finding common ground and a layer or two that links the poem to something 'other', something more universal, is, for me, key. If you read Frost, you find yourself involved in his poems, simply because he is vague, general, careful not to give too much away. He forces you to get up on that sleigh and see the trees, the snow; he engages you in that field with the silken tent simply by leaving huge spaces for you to enter. "She is as in a field a silken tent" leaving you to wonder just who "she" might be... | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3307 Registered: 05-2006 |
I don't mind being a bystander so long as two conditions are met: (1) the narrative is readily comprehensible; (2) the narrative is interesting and entertaining. Then I'll read the piece like I read crime fiction from Donna Leon, Sue Grafton, Tony Hillerman, or Daniel Silva. Mind you, this is one genre of poem. I also go for poems framed ambiguously, so that in a strong sense the poem is a projective device: the piece is not so laden with detail that it frustrates the reader's co-creation. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Judy Thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 798 Registered: 11-2007 |
that's it exactly. Too much information can put a reader off totally. When I listen to old radio broadcasts of plays, I am engaged almost immediately by the show, and "There" in a way I rarely am in a movie. I'm doing a fair amount of work to see the action, spurred by sound effects and dialogue, which the writers trust will give you the scene without a huge amount of explanation. In a way, a poem or short story is like that, too. you are writing in a two dimensional medium and the reader adds his own third dimension. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8899 Registered: 07-2002 |
I do think that both level of detail and ambiguity are different dimensions than metonymy. Using figurative language at all will introduce a degree of ambiguity to a read that enhances, rather than detracts from a poem. Judy--I agree that a tension also exists between enough and too much detail. It's all a Goldilocks and the 3 Bears problem, isn't it? Finding that 'just right'. Thanks for the comments, all. Laz--thanks for the link. Looking forward to reading the article. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28621 Registered: 11-1998 |
I am very much enjoying reading this discussion on metaphor and metonymy, Lisa. I thank you very much for starting it. Though I cannot add much to what has already been presented, I would like to add a component I'm not sure that anyone has touched on. And that is metonymy, metaphor, figurative language that appeals to the heart rather than the head. The emotional rather than the intellectual. There are some instances where I not only tolerate the ambiguity, but welcome it because the comparison touches my emotional centers, not my intellectual ones. I think this is an area in which poetry distinguishes itself. Sometimes when we read something, particularly poems, we don't know why we know, we just know. Poetry (figurative language, metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, simile, etc.) allows the heart to speak what the mind finds difficult to say, and sometimes to understand. Oh, well, those are my thoughts for whatever they're worth. I thank everyone for sharing theirs. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 800 Registered: 11-2007 |
i agree,M; there are times when what I'm reading makes less sense verbally than what Im feeling, and when that happens, it's best to accept it as magic, words rubbing against words in a way that resonates, somehow. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3310 Registered: 05-2006 |
While I enormously respect the emotional element in poetry . . . I must say that following our hearts rather than our reason has led to jihad, racism, sexism, agism and every other form of prejudice and persecution -- all because something or someone doesn't "feel right." Let poetry explore the tension between head and heart, not pander (as it so often does) to the worst of our emotions. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Judy Thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 802 Registered: 11-2007 |
i think, fred, what I was referring to, was the poem that is a bit more obscure than I might have the patience or depth to dig into--and yet I find myself climbing into it, moved, without realizing why. Billy Collins has a poem like that, a long, easy poem, but in the middle he has a philosophical stanza that breaks off, seemingly, from the thread of the rest of it, talking about light and time passing, and several other things. I didn't quite understand what it meant at the time, but suddenly found I was awash in it, sobbing fiercely. There was something in those words that touched me, in ways I had yet to comprehend. Im not advocating the automatic acceptance of pretty, obscure words as great poetry. Only that now and then the undercurrent of a piece reaches up and grabs us, without our realizing, at least at first, why. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8900 Registered: 07-2002 |
This is a tangential point to poetry, Fred, but when I read your last comment, I wondered if it was truly following the heart that leads to prejudice and persecution. Perhaps it's more listening to fear rather than anything else that leads to the persecution of the 'other'. More a philosophical thought than anything else. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28626 Registered: 11-1998 |
Lordy, Freddie -- you do love to grab something and run to the far end of the scale with it, don't you? *grin* I wasn't speaking to poetry that panders. In fact, I try not to read much of it. There are bad eggs in every basket. I was really trying to speak to the emotional component of words. To that fluid spiritual thing that is very hard to put your intellectual finger on. The stuff that appeals to the best of our emotions, not the worst of them. I've just found an author in our newest issue of Stirring, for example, who appeals to what is strong in my heart. I may not understand each and every one of her references or her metaphors, but oh, boy, howdy, do I ever get exactly what she is saying down deep in my gut. That's the aspect I was speaking to. I don't think poems written explicitly to support or promote prejudice and persecution are most people's cup of tea. I don't see many (if any) of those in leading journals, print or internet. In fact, on most mags submission guidelines they state they do not accept those kinds of pieces. Mostly I see them in workshop settings or on blogs, and people usually address them negatively or give them a wide berth. Love, M |
