| Author | Message | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2942 Registered: 10-2005 |
My question is about how competition affects poetry. Whether writing poems is your vocation, hobby, or avocation, how does the comparison of your poems to the rest of the poems in a given week feel? In short, how does everyone feel about the Poem Of the Week process here at Wild. I don’t mean the method of picking the poems. I am certain that the administration here has found the best possible method of choosing poems to highlight each week, which leads to a process of picking a final group of three poems to enter in the IBPC contest each month. What I’m asking is how does it feel to know that you poems are judged against all the poems on the forum each week? Does it matter to you at all? Do you think you would write differently, would you go at a different pace, or post less or more? When I first started posting at Wild I had no idea that my poems would be judged in a weekly contest. I had longed for a place to write and grow my abilities, and when I found this place I was extremely happy to find people who read my poems, who were willing to help me with them, and who saw the good in them. Then, when one of my very first poems was chosen as an HM I was blown over, I was beside myself, I mean, one of my little poems could stand in comparison to some of the best stuff I’d ever read on the web! Now I wonder what this experience would have been like without the competition. The idea of winning an honor here at Wild, which to my mind means writing a poem that satisfies the criteria for publication, has become a major factor in how I feel about what I write. I look to the winning poems to see what they are doing right. But I don’t know if that is really helping me write better. (I do know that a similar atmosphere exists on other boards as well, many people post their poems on several boards to get responses and expose them to a chance to enter them in the IBPC contest.) I know we have to look at the wider market, study poems that actually do get published to get a feeling for where we are going as writers, to stay current is very important in this art. (I’ve heard Miss ~M~ say that on many occasions, and believe me, it has sunk in.) So, I’m just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this subject. Does the fact that your poems are being judged here at Wild affect you or your writing? -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28285 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laz and All -- I just wanted to note in case this is unclear to anyone that no one is forced to participate in the judging process (or rather what I'd like to call the honoring process, as judging sounds as though people are on trial for something bad). We have had people over the years ask that their poems not be considered for Poem of the Week, HM, or IBPC status for any number of reasons. And we are more than happy to comply with and abide by that request (you can state your reasons or keep those reasons to yourself). We understand that people write for a wide variety of reasons and that recognition shouldn't be compulsory. See the WPF FAQs under "WHAT IS ADMIN'S PICK FOR POEM OF THE WEEK?" The recognition process, Poem of the Week and Honorable Mentions, is intended to be a positive experience. As is Wild's participation in the IBPC. It is not intended to make members feel pressured to compete. So, having your poems eligible for recognition and/or submission into the IBPC is not a requirement here at Wild. All you need to do is inform admin or mods of your wishes and we will exclude your work from the recognition process if that's what you want. Thanks! Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3163 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on February 02, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 595 Registered: 11-2007 |
I pretty much write what I write; that the contests and competitions are there is a spur, and gives me a necessary (useful) wall to push against from time to time. Without the competitions, both here and at other places from time to time, there would have been a lot of poems that never got written, some of them pretty good. Some them simply horrid. As far as winning or losing, or 'being judged' goes, I see that as an extra layer of recognition, very cool if it happens, okay if it doesn't. That said, in my most mature handwriting... err, Fred, could you send me the contact number for Gino and Marcello? | ||
| Mariah Wilson
Intermediate Member Username: mariahwilson43 Post Number: 562 Registered: 11-2007 |
While the honor of winning a weekly poetry challenge or being picked for poem of the week or even making to the HM list is always at the back of my mind it is just a little dream. I don't feel it affects what I write and what I post. I really actually only think of it when the winners are posted. I write what I want and I post what I want. Some poems I feel poems are too personal or terrible to send them into the world of cyberspace so they languish on my desk, or in my binders, or in my filing cabinet. I do not enter the challenges with the idea of winning, I enter them with the idea of spreading my wings into different dimensions of poetry, hoping to snag something that touches me. I am a selfish person, I write for my own enjoyment. If others happen to like it that's wonderful, if they don't, I'll get the number for Gino and Marcello from Fred LOL. So Laz, to answer your question, no. Smiles Forever Those people that say anything is possible obviously have not tried to slam a revolving door. | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Advanced Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 1148 Registered: 05-2007 |
No. LOL. xo T. "Everywhere I go I find a poet has been there before me." ~Sigmund Freud~ | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2943 Registered: 10-2005 |
~M~ I thought about doing an experiment on myself a while back where I ask that my poems not be considered for honors, but I wondered what unintended consequences that would have. What if I wrote something really good one week that should have been considered (all self depreciating jokes aside!)but it was not. Wouldn't that have a negative effect on the forum? Wouldn't people be confused about the standards? I suppose if I was already a published poet, and didn't need the recognition or the guidance, I might chose that course. Still, as a regular member, it would be nice to know who wasn't being considered. Fred- Your answer is that you order hit-men to take out whoever wins so you have a better chance next time? Are these only the deserving (in your mind) winners or the ones you feel are undeserving? Judy- I'm glad you brought up the challenges because I'm not referring to those here. In fact, if you write a good challenge poem, and you don't post it in the regular forums it wouldn't be eligible for POW anyway. I agree the challenges bring out poetry that might have never been written. That can't be said for the weekly honors, right? I mean would you, have you ever put a poem in CV thinking that it had a good chance at POW? Judy, you haven't been here very long, so perhaps the effect of the weekly honors has not yet reached you. For me, if I'm working on something I think has a chance to be recognised I treat it differently. I take more time with it in revision. I'm not in as much of a hurry to post it, even if I think it's finished. Maybe these are subtle differences, but I'm just trying to be honest about how the competition side of this effects me. Mariah- It's a little dream in the back of your mind. But you are a selfish writer who writes what you want to write and doesn't care if people think it's good. I suppose that sums up the schizophrenia that is the world of poetry. We know we need the space to be ourselves and to break the rules when we have to in order to find our peculiar voice, but we also have this dream in the back of our minds that maybe others will recognize something wonderful about our work. All this talk about the poetry goons, I'm thinking maybe someone will want to call Gino and Marcello out on me for bringing up this subject! -Laz | ||
| Mariah Wilson
Intermediate Member Username: mariahwilson43 Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2007 |
No need to fear Gino and Marcello, as Fred failed to mention, Gino and Marcello are actually kittens. Cute and Cuddly, furry and fuzzy. They are not gun toting, leg breaking heathen mobsters. Maybe they were in a previous life but now they make up for it as kittens. Thanx for starting this thread. Those people that say anything is possible obviously have not tried to slam a revolving door. | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2945 Registered: 10-2005 |
Well then, I hope they are house trained! Tina- Sorry I missed your post. But I guess there wouldn't have been much to say in response. Oh yeah, there is, I forgot I wanted to say I like your sig. quote. I bet physicists could say the same thing about religion. (Message edited by lazarus on January 26, 2008) -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28289 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laz -- when members write us privately about private issues, we keep that info private. Did I say the word "private" enough? *LOL* Seriously, whether someone has requested that their work be considered or not is a personal matter. If a member should nominate another member's work who has asked not to be recognized, we would just discount the nomination. While we disclose a lot here, we don't need to disclose everything. People should be allowed their privacy. So far, this has had little if any impact on Wild. Those who want to receive recognition are eligible for it. Those who don't, aren't. There is so much good work posted on Wild, we don't seem to suffer in our representation either here or in the IBPC when people withdraw their work from consideration. As I said before, no one should be forced to compete. There are other poems just as skillfully executed to select from. Oh, and I found what you said here most interesting: "For me, if I'm working on something I think has a chance to be recognised I treat it differently. I take more time with it in revision. I'm not in as much of a hurry to post it, even if I think it's finished." I think that should be a goal whether your work is up for recognition or not. Then again, Wild is really a workshop. We expect work to be posted that is still in rough stages. We discount that when making choices for the Poem of the Week and HM categories. We look at the most recent revisions, and even then, we know there will most likely be further revisions. I send a letter to POtW honorees (IBPC candidates) asking that they send me best/finals by month's end. Those best/finals are what is sent into the IBPC competition. You can see those best/finals in the IBPC forum here at Wild and how much or how little the authors have changed them. Hope that the further info I've provided will help. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2948 Registered: 10-2005 |
~M~ Thanks for clarifying the privacy thing. That's very good. You should honor the wishes of the people who want it to be private. I'm just going to throw something out now for everyone's consideration. How would it be if the list of poems that are under consideration for the week were listed publicly? The so-called short list? I'm saying this with the understanding that practically everyone thinks the competition is no big deal, and it doesnt effect them if their poems are very good, but just not good enough for the weekly honors. How would it be to have a runner up list of poems that didn't get honors but were in consideration? (with the added hope that this job wouldn't make too much more work for the Wild crew; they already work so hard for so little) I'm just wondering, a thought exercise, would you like it if one of your poems made this list, but not the honors list? -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28290 Registered: 11-1998 |
P.S. I suppose that I should add that POtW and HMs are not really in "competition" with each other in the strictest sense of that word (and that's why each week I say that HMs are in no particular order). We wouldn't want to pit a published pro against a beginner, as that isn't really fair. We try to look at each person's work based on the skill level. If a person is a beginner, but his/her work is improving and developing, he/she is just as likely to receive recognition here as a published pro. It's a level playing field here at Wild. Or it is at least to the degree that that's possible anywhere. We do take people's different skill levels into account. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28291 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laz -- do you think that the staff here just doesn't have enough to do? *LMAO* Honey, the votes from mods sometimes come in just hours before we are scheduled to release the results. The mods have family/career/life obligations that sometimes delay voting. Publishing the short list would be nice, but often we don't have the time. It's difficult to account for every little thing that goes on behind the scenes here. I really hope that people don't become overly conscious of the recognition part of Wild. It's only a small part of what we provide. And shouldn't be the major motivator in producing quality work. I fear concentrating so heavily on the "honors" part discounts the more important "workshop" part of Wild. If people are improving and growing, seriously, I'm thrilled. I think I speak for the mods as well. Honestly, I wish people would comment more. Getting attention and assistance from peers is often more satisfying and useful than any recognition admin might be able to bestow. Seeing poems languish with few comments is more troubling to me. I and the mods only have so much time, only so many fingers, to comment and try to help people. Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8769 Registered: 07-2002 |
Laz--I don't think knowing that my work is being looked at for HOF consideration changes my writing process at all. I've had pieces picked for the HOF that I felt were just 'ok' writes, and I've had work I though amongst my best not get the nod. Like everything else in which people are the judges, the HOF is a subjective process. I try not to put too much importance to it. Being on 'both sides' of the process, makes it doubly interesting. As a moderator, I also vote for honorees. We are *supposed* to rank order our picks. I find that an almost impossible process. And some weeks, the poems I have nominated are just about the entire slate that M and Steve eventually choose. Other weeks, not a single one of my picks makes it to the HOF. So even being part of the selection process doesn't give you an 'inside track' to knowing what will be honored in a given week or not. All I can do is continue to try to dig deep and write the emotional honesty and attention to craft. I would do no differently even if we were not part of the IBPC. Thank you for bringing this discussion to the table. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Teresa White
Intermediate Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 763 Registered: 01-2005 |
Laz & M, I've been "troubled" about the competition factor in writing poetry ever since I began workshopping about ten years ago --long before I joined WILD. There's a book I never read whose title intrigued me...something like "The Harm of Competition" or something much like it. I believe I read the back of the book explaining the contents and told myself to purchase a copy. Never got around to it. But for the first time, I felt another soul felt as I did --that competition can often hurt rather than help the creative process. That being said (and I wish I could explain it better) I can honestly say that what I post or don't post here at WILD is not dependent on my desire to win or place in any of the competitions here. I do feel a bit like you, Laz, that perhaps I work that much harder on a poem so that I'm posting as complete a version as possible. The competition angle DOES affect me --just not in a negative way. And it goes without saying that I, too, have written scads of poems for Challenges that never would have been written otherwise --some of them going on to be accepted by editors. Just my 2¢ ~Teresa | ||
| Mariah Wilson
Intermediate Member Username: mariahwilson43 Post Number: 566 Registered: 11-2007 |
I know what M is talking about. I hate to see someone's poem languish with only one comment on it. I do try to comment on many different poems by many different poets but sometimes I just don't know what to say. I don't think we need a short list of the poems being considered for POTW. I think if I see a poem I really like and that was really well done my comment of my appreciation should be enough. If I thought the poem was so spectacular I might email one of the mods and suggest to them to consider it for POTW. They have been doing this for a long time and have their own, very fair, system of picking which poems stand out above the rest posted that week and I think we all should trust that system. I think the mods have enough to do with looking after the site, commenting on people's poems, helping people nurture and grow their poetic ability, picking poems to consider for POTW and answering the numerous questions to bother posting a short list of poems in consideration. You should be proud to be a part of a site that offers such assistance and friendly advice. If you happen to make the HM or land a POTW pat yourself on the back. If you happen to recieve 10 wonderful comments on one poem, pat yourself on the back. If you find being here has helped your poetry, pat yourself on the back. There are so many wonderful things here to do and so many wonderful people to learn from. Competition should not be the only focus of writing. Those people that say anything is possible obviously have not tried to slam a revolving door. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3168 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on February 02, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Walter Durk
Intermediate Member Username: summerguy2007 Post Number: 431 Registered: 10-2007 |
Everyone, In one way I like the competition because it is motivational, although I did not join this site in order to win recognition. In another way, I like the idea of being able to create as I wish without undue influence. My personal feeling is that poetry shifts like the wind, and I believe a writer should be true to themself and their readers, first and foremost, and not be unduly influenced by the current trend. People have been writing for thousands of years without knowledge of what others were writing. Although being published in a print journal is an honor of sorts, I don't think that should be paramount. I don't think we should write merely to satisfy a group of editors of a particular journal. (Message edited by summerguy2007 on January 26, 2008) Art is whatever you can get away with.--Andy Warhol | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Advanced Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 1201 Registered: 01-2006 |
I'm jealous of you all. There's just so much talent and I want it all, all, to be mine, mine, mine,mwuhhahahahahahah! I'm sorry, did you ask a question? ad | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 601 Registered: 11-2007 |
Laz, Im not sure what you mean about the effect of the weekly honors not having reached me... in any event, when I write, the only one I'm in competition with is myself. I look over my shoulder and think, tsk tsk tsk. this is drek. you could do better, you know. And i agree. What I look for here is Other Eyes who see this stuff perhaps differently, who see where the speed bumps are, or where the extraneous words are lurking. That sort of thing. I never post just because there's a poem of the week possibility (and if I did I'd surely be disappointed, wouldn't I *g*) or a chance of being selected this or that. My two main objectives here are making what I have better, and being coerced, however subtly and kindly, into writing new stuff. And I do agree, Mariah. There is nothing more embarrassing than having a poem sit there for two weeks and have no one go near it...you think, did I offend? Did I sin? | ||
| MV
Senior Member Username: michaelv Post Number: 706 Registered: 11-2003 |
MJM, your phrase: "the honoring process" ^^ Yes, one of those phrases I've been waiting for to walk into my life - at least I have never heard that for "judging." It's kinder, and yet it's not a euphemism - just right Goldilocks. and I will be borrowing it  MV | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28297 Registered: 11-1998 |
You can beg, borrow, or steal from me any time you like, MV. It would be an honor if you did.  Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2950 Registered: 10-2005 |
Judy- I want you to know I meant no disrespect to you when I said you might not feel it yet. I don't know you very well. I was only basing that statement on the fact that you haven't been here that long. I probably shouldn't have said that. It probably occurred to me because I'm thinking back to my own experience, trying to discern whether I have changed since the beginning. I thank everyone who has been open about their feelings on this subject. It has been an enlightening conversation. -Laz | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2007 |
Laz, it's okay. I just didn't understand what you meant about it all, nor did I take it for a moment to be some kind of shot at me. Really. | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 6090 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Laz I think the idea of competition and poets vying with one another is healthy and important to ensure the quality of poetry in general and of this workshop in particular. None of us writes in isolation and without the influence of other poets. I personally get inspiration from reading others' works and often a spur to do better. This is part of the process. I have never written just for myself and never with the intention of not having my poems read and, hopefully, enjoyed by others. Thus I have viewed my writing as part of a competitive process from the very beginning and not something that I do in isolation. All the best Chris (Message edited by Chrisgeorge on January 27, 2008) Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 7380 Registered: 12-2003 |
Laz, when I first started posting here at WILD I wasn't even aware of the weekly POTW/HM. I just posted to get feedback and encouragement. When I was honored with my first HM that's what it was, an honor, a very encouraging honor, it inspired me to keep writing. And the first POTW I was honored with blew my socks off, in fact I might have said just that in the comments. Would I write and post if there was no POTW? Yes. Why? Because I'm here to workshop my poems and make them the best they can be and everyone in the WILD community, whether they offer advice on mechanics, or a simple I like this one, is encouraging me to keep working and keep writing. I am more honored to be a moderator here at WILD than I am when one of my poems makes the short list.  KYou're invited to: Wild Flowers How do I explain these poems? Not at all. -Anne Sexton | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 606 Registered: 11-2007 |
one line or phrase from one poet can sometimes set off jangles in me that lead to some of my best work. We all stand on the shoulders of everyone else, as poets, and only by reading other writers, and being in an atmosphere of this sort (or a face to face workshop, often) can you really see what you have, and how the work you do stands up against other poets' work. We may write in a kind of isolated mental space, but always with an eye to how it works for other people. If someone says they don't care what other people think, then why put the work out for comment? I've also noticed that there aren't too many people who are interested in enjambment, caesura, sonnets, or linebreaks, unless they too are poets. It's hard to whip these things out in casual convo at a party. And just being around other writers in a kind of mind meld can spark some amazing things. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8773 Registered: 07-2002 |
"I've also noticed that there aren't too many people who are interested in enjambment, caesura, sonnets, or linebreaks, unless they too are poets. It's hard to whip these things out in casual convo at a party." ROFL. I try to use 'enjambment' and 'alliteration' at least once a week in polite conversation.  But then again, my family thinks I'm pretty bizarre anyway. Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Ron. Lavalette
Intermediate Member Username: dellfarmer Post Number: 672 Registered: 05-2007 |
oh yeah. I try to get me some good enjambment, just as often as I can. I gets a little cranky if I goes a week without it. But I'd never pay for it. --Ron. Eggs Over Tokyo | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3177 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on February 02, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Jim Corner
Advanced Member Username: jdc Post Number: 2358 Registered: 09-2006 |
While I write for my own enjoyment and to receive publication several times each year, perhaps wonder what a poem has to be to be honored, and say, "It would be good to be chosen," I don't have expectations for winning. I'm a bit more competitive on my www. DesertMoonReview.com since I need to keep my rep for my authors. I'm usually nominated several times during the year, perhaps among the three to IBPC one or two times and not devastated if I'm not. I write for myself, for poets to get healthy critiques and the masses to spead thought and perhaps a quanity of Joy. My best, Jim Emboss The Snowflake Publisher of www.DesertMoonReview.com | ||
| Barbara Ruth
Member Username: barbara Post Number: 89 Registered: 01-2008 |
Interesting thread, indeed. I'm VERY new here. I was indeed thrilled to be in a 3 way tie on the challenge, and also surprised, as I considered some of the other poems, including HMs and others, as superior to mine. So there I am, comparing. I was then disappointed when I put my poem in Biofeedback, as I felt it still needed work, and got zero feedback. Then I saw all the action was in CV. I do wonder, why do the poems in the challenge then get reposted in CV and not in BioF? Or am I just looking at the short term? Laz, I'm way too new to know a thing about posting to win the PotW etc. I do know I welcome intense crit and also assignments, both improve my work tremendously. I know this week, looking at the poems in the challenge, I thought "that is a really original approach" (more than once) "oh, that's SO the mood of the model poem, I see now what was being done in creating mood" (but I was too far into my poem to scrap it) and wondered more than once how the poems would be w/out the threat of their creators being shot if they didn't stop. I'm still finding where to post what in order to get the level of response I want. I'm amazed by how good so many of the poets here are. It's a thrill, and a big inspiration. Since I got here I'm writing more and I'm more jazzed about writing and it's a big up in my life. Just a bit of bio: due to disability reasons it's extremely hard for me to participate in a live and in person writing group (though I've been in many incredible ones in the past). So, at this point, internet life gives me access to participation in writing community I couldn't otherwise get. And that's BIG in my quality of life, as I'm sure it is for many here. Competition --yeah, I am competitive. As a Buddhist, I definitely consider comparisons a hindrance. As a poet, they stretch my wingspan. Barbara | ||
| GA Sunshine
Advanced Member Username: ga_sunshine Post Number: 1218 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hi Laz! I've enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread. What fun! There has been so many that I had to go back and determine what your original questions were. In short, how does everyone feel about the Poem Of the Week process here at Wild. When I came here, I was looking for intensive critique. I was tired of 'I really like this.' and nothing more. Never a 'but, ...' That's not to say that I don't like to hear, 'I really like this.' but rather, some of that and some of how I can make my poem better. I always analyze the why it would be better, and so I learn. The POtW doesn't really directly affect me. With all the high quality poets and poems, I don't believe my craft is at that level-yet. I do believe it attracts the more professional poets and thus the higher quality of comments. Does the fact that your poems are being judged here at Wild affect you or your writing? The POtW and IBPC only affect me indirectly. But the weekly challange, that's another story. I need a challange to write. If there wasn't one, I would let all those other demands on my life take over and I wouldn't write. The challanges not only extend my understanding and stretch my abilities, but also introduce me to comtemporay poets I would otherwise be unaware existed. Yeah, it hurts when I think my poem is really good and it doesn't even get an HM. Still, doesn't that kind of prepare you for editors and publishers? Thanks for starting this Laz. Enjoyed! *Hugs* Susan | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2007 |
Susan, I hear that so often: my poem isnt good enough to enter, so why bother? They do consider, here, by level, so that what appears sometimes to be a less than "professional" quality poem has a chance, even if there are apparently better poems entered. It costs nothing to enter, nothing to win or lose. Rejection is a hard deal, but you have to keep telling yourself, it ain't personal. It isnt you that's rejected, it's your work, and not necessarily that it's bad, only that someone else's is a bit better. And so often what we think is really good isn't, so often what we think is mediocre seems to make everyone stand up and cheer....which is WHY we come to places like this, that we can learn to judge our own strengths and weaknesses better. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8774 Registered: 07-2002 |
Barbara--regarding the differences between CV and BFB--when we reorganized the boards at Wild, we recognized that poets are at different stages and may want different things (even for different poems). So we split our 'main' poetry board into CV--for light crit/commentary and BFB--for heavy crit. There are several reasons why BFB gets less obvious comments, one is that folks are just uncertain about how to critique. Some also don't feel they have the skill, especially when they may be new to writing in general. (That's one of the reasons I'm working on critique resources.) One other reason is that a crit in BFB takes more time and more work. When I am working through the poems in BFB, it takes me many more reads, spaced over several days, before I feel I'm ready to give a BFB-worthy critique. A poem may stand without comments for several days or more before it gets critiqued. In a way, the slower pace of BFB works in the poets' favor--things can often get a flurry of light comments in CV and than get lost in the new work that gets posted. My hope is that more poets start to participate in BFB. There is a lot to be learned in the process of offering in depth critique. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28312 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest GA -- you went straight to the heart of what I wanted the Challenges to provide for members. You said it all right here: "1. I need a challange to write. If there wasn't one, I would let all those other demands on my life take over and I wouldn't write. 2. The challanges not only extend my understanding and stretch my abilities, but also introduce me to comtemporay poets I would otherwise be unaware existed. 3. Yeah, it hurts when I think my poem is really good and it doesn't even get an HM. Still, doesn't that kind of prepare you for editors and publishers? Those were my three goals: to provide impetus to write, to introduce poets to new forms and contemporary poets, to give them a taste of the competition/submission process. Are people at the mercy of my particular idea of poetics, my particular taste? Yes, to some degree, it would appear that they are. But this mirrors what they will find out in the real world of publishing, mags, and editors. You will be at the mercy of the poetic ideals of the editors at every mag or journal you choose to submit to. You should study an editor's tastes. It will help you to craft poems that might appeal if getting in a particular journal is one of your goals. I try to provide a sample poem, not only to introduce people to poets they might not be familiar with, but also to mimic a mag's preferences. Before you submit anywhere, you should read several back issue of the journal to see what type of style the editors are looking for. Not that everyone should line up like sheep. There are many different styles and forms currently in vogue in the marketplace today. I try to bring members a sampling of as many of those styles as I can in the poems I choose as examples to study in the Challenges. I go out of my own comfort zone for these Challenges too. I often pick sample poems that don't necessarily appeal to me. I try to wear as many different kinds of editors' hats as I can, so that people aren't stuck with just my preferences. I try to bring a wide variety to Wild. Yes, you should cultivate your own style, your voice. But poets should also remain flexible, they should attempt styles, forms, voices, structures that are different from their own. This causes insight (or hopefully it does) and allows people to move beyond their comfort zones. They might even attempt a style they didn't initially like or had never seen before and fall in love with it. They might want to explore it more. And growth of any kind thrills me as an editor. The competition aspect of the Challenge is really a very small part of the whole. What I hope people gain from the experience is the ability to experiment, to consider new perspectives, to try then fail, to try then succeed. It's learning that's going on here. I don't want people to become obsessed with "Am I better than so-and-so." I want them to be concerned with "Is this poem I wrote for this Challenge better than the one I wrote yesterday." My advice is to put the competitive aspects of the Challenge on the back burner. Pit yourself against yourself. If you are learning, improving, and growing, then you should consider the Challenges a smashing success whether you ever win, place, or show. Every person who chooses to enter the Challenges is a winner. They are learning, and what could be more important than that? Love, M P.S. If you think that choosing among more than a dozen poems that you feel should receive honors is easy, then you have never judged a competition. It's an agonizing process (and I don't use dramatic words like "agonizing" at the drop of a hat) that causes me to grow as an editor. Trust me -- in any competition or submission process, there are often poems that you must pass over that should be recognized or accepted. But to extend the honors too widely cheapens the honors. It's very much between a rock and a hard place situation. Don't envy me. It's not a power trip; it's a humbling experience. Selecting is as hard (maybe harder) on me as it is on you. | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 563 Registered: 11-2005 |
I am in agreement with GA. I always read the POTW, if I haven't already, and almost always agree that it is one of the best of a very good line up. At the end of the day, competition isn't the reason for writing, but it should give the writer some information on how one's work is perceived. Which reminds me, I should weigh in with my attaboy/girl more often. Because I don't do that often enough. The challenge is a great way to spur writing. And like Ga, I probably would find other things to do, if I didn't at least try to fulfill the challenge. And it is a great way to learn about the writing world, who's up who's down, and how it is going "out there" Now that said, lest one get an inflated ego, there is always the comment in CV on the challenge you have just won, where several people say, to another, "yours was my favourite." With the corresponding silence on the matter on ones own. It happens. *LOL* But then, I am ususally in agreement with the statement,(as it pertains to my work) so it's not really very wounding.(tis but a scratch) Which is how creative competition works. Sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug. The point is, if you are satisfied with your effort, and feel is stands up well against the standard you have set for yourself, it is a good thing. Personally, I like to read a lot of work, always with an eye to its craft, inspiration, and a general attitude of now "how did they do that? Cool." I find it helps me reset the standard for my own work. Gives me better tools to evaluate it. But I like to read, and to me one of the very best results of the challenge is the opportunity to see how different writers respond to the same task. There are many voices each with something unique to say on the subject, and that just gives me a lot of reading pleasure. It is really neat to get recognition, and I think it is important to any writer, but if you are doing it for that reason alone, it could get in the way of what you want/need to say, and the way you choose to say it. If one is as happy as the first runner-up in a beauty contest, one is not really happy.( it should have been mine, miiiiine) It's nice to think one might have a chance, but it's also nice to think one is in very good company when the recognition isn't there. Keep on keeping on. regards Sue | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 564 Registered: 11-2005 |
Oh, M, I just read your response, and I want you to know, I do not envy you the judging task. I am always very happy not to have that burden. It is easy to pick personal favourites but very difficult to give an award. I always love your detailed analysis of the winning work, and find it extremely helpful in forming my own judgements, and understanding the work that went into the process. (like I ever thought it was a casual choice, LOL) Thanks as always for taking this on. I appreciate it very much. regards Sue | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28316 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thank you, sue. Much appreciated. You know, as I was reading back through this thread, both my own and, more importantly, others' responses, it occured to me that I failed to mention one other aspect. Fun. Writing should have, even as you are working hard on your craft with an eye toward submissions to mags and competitions, at least a small (if not a very large) component of fun/enjoyment in the mix. I know I often get so focused on producing quality work that I forget to have fun. If it's not fun, at least some of the time, then maybe you need to chill. *smile* Sure the Challenges are intended as serious lessons, exposure to new ideas, but a classroom that ain't any fun is a drag. *grin* It's good to lighten up every once in a while and just let go. That's why I have the Mock Award along with the occasional silly Challenge (wait till you see what I'm working on for the next pick-up-number Challenge . . . it's a doozy!). More people should be competing for the Mock, and having fun. At least some of the time. Don't let the bastards (and I include myself in that category) get you down. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28317 Registered: 11-1998 |
Oh, and one other thing (no, I hardly ever shut up). Just so people are aware, steve and I have been tracking the stats on Wild. Since January 2007 till now, business here has doubled. That's right, doubled. That doesn't sound like much until you think of the analogy of the US doubling its population in one year's time. That pretty explosive. And yet, there are still only the same number of slots for recognition, in both POtW/HM categories and for Challenges. What it all boils down to is there's a lot more competition, a lot more people playing in the pool with you. I used to be lucky to get 6-8 entries in a Challenge. Now I routinely get numbers of entries in the teens, even the 20s. Not to mention that the people who have been with us for a while are getting better and better. So, naturally it's going to be harder to rise to the top. We are a victim of our own success. Ain't that great! Love, M | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2005 |
Oh yeah, that *Fun* thing. I forgot to mention it too, like the elephant in the room. LOL. That is really why I participate, and what I get out of it all. It's fun. regards, Sue | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 618 Registered: 11-2007 |
There is a carefulness here, a kindness, that you rarely see on other poetry forums. I have yet to see a deliberate ad hominem attack on anyone, I have yet to see the poet critiqued and not the poem; that says a lot about the board itself, and its stated aims. Some people insist that they like that face-slapping, it makes them work harder. It's hard to imagine that by demeaning a poet or his work he is inspired to do better; and it's apt to make him avoid the place forever. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28318 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thank you, judy, for weighing in with your comments and compliments. If you'll allow me a moment to brag about the moderators here at Wild (I'm excluding myself because this is about them, not me), perhaps I can explain how we've done it. Not one mod here at Wild (present or past) has ever accepted the position in order to play head games or take power trips. The mods at Wild have two important qualities in common, no matter how different they are in other areas: 1) A love of words 2) A respect for people Of course, they have other important characteristics as well (intelligence, humor, devotion, talent, compassion, empathy, etc.), but those two I numbered are paramount. You put those two rather simple things together, and you can see why face-slapping and demeaning just don't fly here. And where the mods go, so go the members. Anyone who's come here for head games and power trips learns pretty quickly that those things aren't on the menu. So, I thank the mods. I never thank them enough. I could thank them every day, and it still wouldn't be enough. The members, too. Everybody works together so hard to make Wild what she is. Most of the time, that just stuns me. Love, M | ||
| Barbara Ruth
Member Username: barbara Post Number: 92 Registered: 01-2008 |
hey M and others, I'd say the big challenge by far is for you and the other mods. You get the challenge of the week, then the month! And, as long as you're mods, you don't just not participate one week (at least I think you don't) cuz you're not in the mood. DId I say I'm really having fun here? Life is way too serious not to have fun. don't cha think? gonna go find out what this week's challenge is, Barbara | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3186 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on February 02, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28319 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Barbara -- I think you is right on every score! *oops, she already left for the Challenge forum* Dearest Freddie -- now, here I thought it woulda been the purple panny party hats that gave it away. *sprayin' hairspray, blowin' on wet fingernail polish* Love, M | ||
| Deborah P Kolodji
Intermediate Member Username: dkolodji Post Number: 911 Registered: 04-2005 |
I've been sitting on this question for a few days, trying to decide whether I should weigh in on it or not. The truth is that even though I've been a member here for years, I've stayed away for months at a time because I'm so ridiculously competitive at heart that it sometimes depresses me that I've never won. (I didn't really want to post that because it sounds like sour grapes, but I wonder if others feel that way?). That said, I love the environment here at Wild and have always carefully considered the comments on poems I've posted here. I also think it is a good idea to recognize the best poems of a week, so I like the idea behind the weekly competition here. The bottom line is that poetry is an art, not a competitive sport. As long as we keep our focus on that, it all works out (even if I NEVER end up with a poem of the week - lol!) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28373 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Deborah -- while it may be true that you have never been honored with Poem of the Week, it is not true that you've gone without any honors. Check out our archives. This is your page there. All of these poems of yours have been recognized in the weekly mention here at Wild: Deborah Kolodji Thank you for being honest about your feelings and thank you as well for continuing to be such a valuable member of Wild. Your statement about the bottom line is true -- poetry is art, not competition. And many, many people here at Wild (and beyond) recognize and appreciate your artistry. Love, M | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5258 Registered: 08-2003 |
What a great thread Laz and I'm very glad you brought up this subject. It has brought to light a myriad of viewpoints on the reasons why we write and whether or not competition is a motivating factor. The pleasure of reading your thoughts, all of you, brings to mind why I joined Wild in 2003 and why I have stayed and will continue to stay until I win every competition in a row. That's right, I want to see: POTW - emusing - My Heart is a Fence of Longing HM - emusing - What the Dog Said HM - emusing - 13 Ways to Kill A Cockroach HM - emusing - My First Sestina Written in the Bathtub Well....seriously... When I won my HM you might as well have handed me the Nobel Prize. It was a tremendous validation. It meant I had something to say that someone else would be interested in. That had been my litmus test. When I tried this "poetry thing" it was with the idea that I would continue on if my poems received a positive response. I had no goals or means of measuring my desire to write. I started posting my poems on poetry.com (yes I did) and I’d admire how nice they looked in their little electronic frames. One day I read an astonishing poem by a poet named Frank Faust. He’d written a poem entitled Enigma. It went like this: Essentially Enigma I will draw you in a dervish swirl from palette onto paper cream and dimple hungry for the shape-and-hue emergence of you from rapid dabs and strokes by brushes coarse for vital form and background fine for definition of the porous contour, detail hid inside the mystery of your face I whirl around unsteadied by your eyes, brown on the canvas watching every line and mark I make to fill demanding empty spaces like a judgment needing eyebrows and the shape of mouth to cast a verdict on my fever rush of colors stroked in the flurried brightness of deluded acts to catch the essentials of enigma -Frank Faust It is the one and only poem that Frank ever posted there but it was enough for me to track him down on the internet and ask him if he knew of any good workshops I could join. He did and here I am. Without turning this into a testament about Wild (which would be so easy to do—don’t get me started darlink!) but suffice to say that everything that is part and parcel of Wild has driven me to improve both as a poet and of equal importance as someone who desires to help poets. I see all of this as a combined experience. When we break it down to it’s essential, life is a game. It has freedoms and barriers no matter what one wants to accomplish in life. This world would be so dull without a game. And I think of “game” in the best sense even if it is competition with one’s self, how can I express myself better? How can I make the leap from my universe to yours? For me, it was important to expand out into the world of poetry, attend live events, live workshops and readings. And when I did wander beyond the boundaries of our site I discovered that what was going on here was an artistic chrysalis. It is not easy to maintain a type of “culture” where freedom of expression is encouraged, as well as an appreciation of a multitude of styles and voices. Ah gee I said I wasn’t going to get on the “Wild” soapbox but one cannot avoid it. We don’t have assholes at Wild because the group as a whole generates far too much positive energy. The ones who stay here over time do so because they want to learn and they know that Wild is a community where they will grow. And then there are those that are content to post their poems every once in awhile and they are part of us too. I don’t think there is one single task but many at Wild. All depends on what we personally want from the experience. Call me corny but this forum is driven by love. It is what attracted me and why I stayed. Love comes in the shape of challenges, ideas, constant and diligent attention to what goes on. I have grown because of it. I believe challenges are a healthy part of growth. Sometimes we can get too wrapped up in them (and I certainly have) because “winning” offers a validation of our purpose but win or no should not be a gage of one’s progress because I don’t believe we should limit ourselves to the viewpoint (as wide as it is here at Wild) of a handful of people. Submission, publication, readings, these are ways of getting feedback too. One can tend to become insular and too focused in. Part of the purpose here (as mentioned with the Challenges) is to offer us a way of connecting to the poetry outside of this forum and to challenge ourselves to a very high bar. I believe the poetry formula is equal parts constructive feedback and equal parts encouragement. Stimulation is for me the best form of creation, whether it comes in the form of a challenge, a new poet, an old poet, or if I’m lucky a plane ticket to the next destination of choice. e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Ann Metlay
Senior Member Username: wordsrworthy Post Number: 2787 Registered: 08-2007 |
I have been thinking more and more about this. Everyone I know says I am a "wonderful poet". I come and post here, enter the creativity challenges and have probably never even been considered for an HM. It has been a humbling experience, but so far I just do my own work and maybe someday I will improve as a poet and win something. Ann | ||
| Penelope
Intermediate Member Username: penelope Post Number: 492 Registered: 07-2005 |
Dear Laz, thank you for this courageous question and all the frank discussion that has followed. It's a valuable thread. Love the way it makes us take an honest look at ourselves. I respect people who need no outside validation for their art. In fact, I envy them. They've freed themselves of judgment grinch. For me, writing is a process which is not complete until it is received. In fact, I will never say, "I'm a writer." I will only say, "I write." I need to know how the process plays out and I can't know that unless I have readers and they share their responses with me. Anything else for me is icing on the cake. As gooey as this sounds, I feel like a winner every time someone stops in to read a piece of mine. A long thread is as thrilling as that short announcement. And if I want time to slow down, all I do is post a piece and wait for that first response! No matter how much I like a piece or how confident I feel about it, there's always that little niggling fear that I'm going to be like one of those America Idol contestants who the whole world is shaking their heads over. But then I remember if we didn't think we could make a joyful noise, we'd never open our mouths. Who can blame us for doing a happy dance when the judges send us on to Hollywood! Still...I think competition is inevitable even if there's only one person in the game! There's no doubt that taking a prize or getting a public nod is right up there with winning the lottery. Like E said, it validates. And competition is good as long as rivalry isn't a part of it. That's what makes Wild such a heavenly place to play. No matter how much you may want to see your name in lights, you applaud like hell when some deserving player gets to keep the game ball. Oh, god, forgive all these cliches! And competition is good as long as you avoid the obsessive comparisons and labeling that usually accompany it. That should be avoided at all costs. It's demoralizing to everyone involved but especially to the perpetrator. Now let me make myself perfectly clear to any and all the judges who are reading this, I'm NOT saying, "I don't need no stinking prizes!" Oh, wait, let me put that in the positive just to be heard correctly. "I want my share of those stinking prizes!!!!!!" | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 638 Registered: 11-2007 |
Ann, you love your friends, and they love you, but the downside of that is, they also love your work without question and will rarely comment on it in what they seem to feel is a negative fashion. This is why places like this are so valuable; you are among Other Poets who don't know you from a fig on the tree, and what they see is The Poem on the page, not lovable Ann who writes those great poems. You are among friendly strangers, who only see what's in front of them, not your history with them as friends. I think it's necessary to know that and may be why so many people have trouble with the critique process, forgetting that the poem is the star, not the writer. *g* And I agree, it can be a bit of a shock to discover that the poem "everyone' loved at home when you showed it to them has room for improvement here. It is humbling, but it also makes us think hard about what we're doing, and why, and how to make it better. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28383 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest All -- as admin, I just wanted to pop in here and say that reading all the comments and discussions in this thread has been very instructive for me. Your thoughts and opinions and feelings are of paramount importance to me. I don't think (I'm not sure because it's very hard to remember back ten years) that we ever intended the POtW and HM process to be competitive. It was just our little way of recognizing what we felt was exemplary work on the part of the membership. But what you intend and what people make it of it are often very different things (as we all know just from writing poems). I am a very odd duck. I am not competitive (I think I am missing that gene or something). This does not make me better than other people. In fact, I think it makes me tragically flawed in a very important way. I am honestly happy when I see someone else win. It makes me feel like a winner to be associated with them, especially when they are friends like all of you are to me. And that's not entirely positive. It means that when entering competitions, I'm probably going to be an also-ran. And I will most likely never be famous, as famous people are normally highly competitive. But it does set me to thinking that maybe some balance between what I am (non-competitive) and the opposite end of the scale (highly competitive) is where peace lies. It's often just as lonely at the top as it is at the bottom. Ah, well -- it's something to think about anyway. Oh, and I just wanted to mention that those poems that do receive POtW and HM recognition are normally those that end up on everyone's (mods, admin, members) or a majority of people's lists. It's not just one pair of eyes that is making this decision each week. And when entirely separate people come to the same conclusions, it's kind of hard to argue with it. So, vote for poems you like. We do listen. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2974 Registered: 10-2005 |
I’m starting to get a handle on this elusive issue and how competition affects me. I’ve gathered quotes from the relevant posts; please understand space is limited as is a readers patience, and I’m ready to make a few points. First ~M~ on the process: We expect work to be posted that is still in rough stages. (For the POW) We try to look at each person's work based on the skill level. If a person is a beginner, but his/her work is improving and developing, he/she is just as likely to receive recognition here as a published pro. Lisa on the process: Like everything else in which people are the judges, the HOF is a subjective process. I try not to put too much importance to it. I've had pieces picked that I felt were just 'ok' writes, and I've had work I thought amongst my best not get the nod. 1.The Awarding Process The weekly POW is different than submitting your poems for a contest or a publication. The weekly honor, (and I think we’ve established, it is an honor, not a win) is a comparison of all the work in a week, yes, but it is also based on a formula that includes several fluctuating variables, ie, taste, the poet’s past performance, and whether the poem, at the time, is “publish worthy,” and probably a few more that I could never know, having never judged. As a participant in this weekly decision, my poems are stacked against a blind field. I don’t really know all the poems that are out there being considered. (You can try to read everything every week but it is exhausting! The facts seem to point to this truth; the honor is about 50% arbitrary. For instance a poem might be honored in a particular week, because of the quality of that week, and not in another. A poem might be very good but that week, a junior effort is being honored instead. A poet might drop in, with much higher skills and experience, who throws the usual curve off. I’ll add one of my own: You might not be perceived as having grown sufficiently to merit honors (this is a good thing/bad thing, because, as we have established, we need recognition to grow but we also need to move out of our comfort zone and the ones who know us best at Wild are also helping/judging our work.) 2. Competition- Good or bad? Chris on competition: Chris- I think the idea of competition and poets vying with one another is healthy and important to ensure the quality of poetry in general and of this workshop in particular. Teresa- I can honestly say that what I post or don't post here at WILD is not dependent on my desire to win or place in any of the competitions here. I do feel a bit like you, Laz, that perhaps I work that much harder on a poem so that I'm posting as complete a version as possible. The competition angle DOES affect me --just not in a negative way. Sue Kay- competition isn't the reason for writing, but it should give the writer some information on how one's work is perceived. It is really neat to get recognition, and I think it is important to any writer. Barbara Ruth-Competition --yeah, I am competitive. As a Buddhist, I definitely consider comparisons a hindrance. As a poet, they stretch my wingspan. ~M~ I fear concentrating so heavily on the "honors" part discounts the more important "workshop" part of Wild. Wild is really a workshop. I think it’s a good idea not to sweep under the rug the reality that we live and work in a competitive world. It’s not that each and every one of our efforts should rise to the top. (BTW thank you E for voicing this dream, which I can say I myself have had: “The pleasure of reading your thoughts, all of you, brings to mind why I joined Wild in 2003 and why I have stayed and will continue to stay until I win every competition in a row.” Emusing.) As a byproduct of the honoring process we expect, and perhaps deserve to expect, that our efforts at improving our skill and results will be recognized. However the world can’t stop for us. We might be growing in leaps and bounds, and only know it by the little hints in our comments; which leads me to my third point, the comments. 3. Workshopping, not winning an honor, is the key to writing better I think the biggest thing I’ve taken away from this discussion is how important the comments in the threads of a poem really are. Kathy P- I'm here to workshop my poems and make them the best they can be... Lisa- All I can do is continue to try to dig deep and write the emotional honesty and attention to craft. Judy Thompson- We may write in a kind of isolated mental space, but always with an eye to how it works for other people. ~M~ I fear concentrating so heavily on the "honors" part discounts the more important "workshop" part of Wild. Wild is really a workshop. I’m not sure it’s going to sooth over every fragile ego on the Wild forum to say, “Hey keep your head up you got great comments, you don’t need any more recognition than that!” But if there aren’t enough comments they may not know their work is appreciated, so there is no excuse for withholding your comments on a poem- because you never know what might give that poet an extra boost. Finally, I want to give special consideration to Deborah Kolojodji for giving us a really honest answer. I too have thought to myself, “I think I’ll just go away for awhile, they don’t notice all my hard work, what’s the point if I’m never going to get that special prize?” Thank you Deborah for letting that cat out of the bag. If we didn’t feel this way at least some of the time I don’t think we’d be human. And a special thanks also to Andrew who seems to have a real handle on the problem: “I'm jealous of you all. There's just so much talent and I want it all, all, to be mine, mine, mine,mwuhhahahahahahah!- Andrew Dufresne -Laz | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2975 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ann, Pen Judy and M- I was writing as you were posting and so wasn't able to include any of your thoughts in the above post. -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28384 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Laz -- thanks for the summary. It, too, is very instructive. And illuminating. In fact, this thought struck me hardest: "I too have thought to myself, “I think I’ll just go away for awhile, they don’t notice all my hard work, what’s the point if I’m never going to get that special prize?” My only question is whom do you hurt when you do that? To eliminate yourself from a workshop process and all the benefits to be derived from that process (beyond honors and recognition and all that) seems counterproductive to me. Certainly, it is most human to feel that way. But it only hurts the person who leaves. Just one comment from one generous and helpful person can mean the difference between a successful poem and one that languishes in the rejection pile. Why would someone want to refrain from possibly receiving what is more concretely valuable than any honor? Information that you can use to improve? Isn't that cutting your nose off to spite your face? *quizzical look* Don't mind me. I'm often confused by people. I'm just stumbling along here, trying to figure people out. *sigh* Love, M | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 639 Registered: 11-2007 |
good comments, Laz. I was reading yours and ~M~'s, thinking, I never thought of the challenges as competition as such, it's more of a place to show what you can do when pushed a bit into other waters. you pull things out in a challenge that you didnt know were there, in much the same way the the ten word challenge at Cafe Utne works. I view it as separate from the workshop section, more of a playplace than a workplace. Not only that, it's very hard to "compete" with other writers in this kind of venue, since only the last few posters get to see what everyone else has done. | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2977 Registered: 10-2005 |
~M~ I once wanted to run away from home because my (pet) nutes died. It was my teachers fault, but I figured if a little nute can't make it in the world, why should I try?" My point is, (beyond harming my reputation for toughness and sanity!) you can't explain some feelings in a rational way. And my husband is always pointing out my proclivity to cut off my nose to spite my face, (sic) which I think he is right about most of the time, even if I wish he wasn't. Judy- To be clear, I am not referring to the weekly challenges, which I believe are offered, explained, and judged extremely well by our M. -Laz | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3205 Registered: 05-2006 |
Wild has a dominant aesthetic. To a degree, it correlates with what might be called "true excellence," and to a degree it correlates with a dominant aesthetic engine within poetry-as-a-whole; but it is itself a kind of embedded expert system, partially based on "eternal attributes" of literary accomplishment, and partially based on contemporary trends, such as the obsessions with concision and internal rhyme. I don't think it's possible for a thriving poetry community NOT to have a dominant aesthetic, or perhaps several. One forum I used to post at has a strong formalist bias. Another likes simple poems from simple poets. A third prefers Jorie Graham type poems that are comprehensible to me only on days when my IQ soars over 150. But there is a dominant aesthetic here, just as there is a dominant overall ethos. In the nineteenth century light skin was the rage; now tan skin prevails, despite the fact that with the depleted ozone layer tan skin correlates with skin cancer. Which hue is intrinsically better? This much I will concede. A blouse that reveals tasteful cleavage, and thus arouses the imagination, is far sexier than bare breasts. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28393 Registered: 11-1998 |
Ah, Laz -- sometimes I want to hug you.  Just remember this: having feelings and acting on those feelings are two different things. For instance, you may often want to put your hands around a certain admin's throat (who shall remain nameless) and tighten them for all you're worth. However, doing so might land you in the big house. *LOL* There's certainly nothing wrong with feeling things. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28394 Registered: 11-1998 |
That's very good, Freddie. Now, can you repeat it all in English?? I'm very proud of myself. I got this part: "A blouse that reveals tasteful cleavage, and thus arouses the imagination, is far sexier than bare breasts." Isn't that good? Love, M | ||
| Deborah P Kolodji
Intermediate Member Username: dkolodji Post Number: 913 Registered: 04-2005 |
M - I think the thought of "running away" has more to do with the feeling of not belonging - I know this may sound strange, because I know I belong here, but if you have a certain poetic sensibility that feels as if it is a bit at odds with the dominant aesthetic, you can feel alienated at times. And not being recognized then would sort of hammer that point in - the idea that you don't really belong here. If this makes sense. But, as you point out - a person doesn't have to act on one's feelings, because feelings can sometimes lead you astray.... (Message edited by dkolodji on January 31, 2008) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28396 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Deborah -- thank you for sharing your further thoughts and feelings. Also, for the expanded explanation. I think I know exactly how you feel. I'm not sure how one deals with this, though. As a former teacher, I do know that it is difficult to run one classroom in which there are many different types and levels of students. You try to do your best to include them all, to reach out to them all, but you have to depend on them being willing to reach back sometimes, to not isolate themselves. Perhaps the best way to not feel so much like an outsider is to jump in with assistance to others in those areas where your competencies are. I think maybe "give and take" apply here. Giving back is a wonderful way to feel a part of a community. To concentrate on what makes you feel part of a group, rather than what makes you different or at odds. And to share your talents with those of like mind who can benefit from them. An administration and staff can only do so much. We have to depend on people to meet us halfway. Hope this helps. Love, M | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5259 Registered: 08-2003 |
Deb, being a participant in your SPA workshops I think there is room here at Wild for workshopping speculative poetry. Honestly, I think people would really enjoy it but that is your choice. Laz, I hope I didn't seem flip in my answer to your question. I went off on a long tangent but I mostly wanted to offer that when I've had the feeling of disappointment for not being chosen for one thing or another I realized that my focus was too narrow. This got me to reach out to other boards (I'm not advocating mutunity just diversity) as well as other types of live poetry interaction where I could see the effect my words had in a reading. I think it's important not to put all of our marbles into one playground. I spend most of my workshop time here at Wild but do frequent a couple of other boards and have received completely different feedback (especially on a British one I'm on) on a number of my poems. It tells you that there are people and cultures with different sensibilities and I think that's important to know. x e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Barbara Ruth
Valued Member Username: barbara Post Number: 111 Registered: 01-2008 |
Well, this is a great discussion, and I am enjoying the second and third thoughts people are posting here as it sways. Very good points about the aesthetic at Wild, and different responses different poems have gotten on other websites. I was wondering it/hoping that/ my poem would come up for PotW or HM. I think ultimately I was more pleased to see Matthew's poem "A Season of Science" get it - b/c that showed me the mods were really reading. At the time of it's win, that poem had received very little response. It certainly hadn't gotten to my attention. Although I certainly post to far more than 2 for each one poem I put on the boards, I actually post to less than 50% (I got that figure from Laz of what it's possible to do) of what's here; I try to make up in quality what I lack in quantity - I spent an hour and a half giving feedback on one poem last night. And like everyone else, of course there are various thing that keep me away from the board at given times. I am truly hoping for more specific comments on how to improve what I post here in the coming days/weeks/months/centuries. That is what I crave most of all. or anyway that's what I think this minute, Barbara | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28406 Registered: 11-1998 |
Good thoughts, E and Barbara. Yes, we certainly aren't the only poetry board. I know quite a few people make the rounds and get various responses on different boards. I always tell people to get second opinions. And then there is the ultimate litmus test. Send the poem(s) to a journal -- let a pro decide. Thank you for stating your opinions on the Silverman piece, Barbara. Yes, we mods may not be able to comment on everything, but we do try to read it all. It's great when we can discover a hidden gem like Matthew's poem. The recognition process allows us to bring a work to everyone's attention that might otherwise have gone unnoticed. I was glad to read that you crave the comments the most. To me, they are the most valuable thing of all, and I can't tell you how many times the people here have saved my butt by pointing out my poems' flaws. We'll try to provide that same assistance for you as much as we are able. Love, M | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 649 Registered: 11-2007 |
if you look at the date that Matthew posted that poem, it hadn't been on the board that long, as I recall. It isnt that it didn't recieve comments, it just hadn't been up long enough to get em. And frankly it needed very little revision, that I could see. | ||
| Ron. Lavalette
Intermediate Member Username: dellfarmer Post Number: 679 Registered: 05-2007 |
Competition? There's competition? Huh. I'll be damned. I gotta try to keep up. Can I get a cookie? --Ron. Eggs Over Tokyo | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 650 Registered: 11-2007 |
>>sliding plate across the table<< take two, we got lots | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 28410 Registered: 11-1998 |
Don't feed Ron cookies, judy, no matter how much he begs. He gets that cookie high, and then he crashes. Pretty soon, we find him on the streets in the bad sections of town, trying to trade that TV he stole for cookies. It's sad. We've tried rehab, but it just doesn't stick. Another lost soul on that bad cookie trip. How often do you hear that story? Love, M | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 22166 Registered: 07-2001 |
cookies? COOKIES? where? WHERE? s/g | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1205 Registered: 04-2007 |
I have the cookies. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3213 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on February 02, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8792 Registered: 07-2002 |
Hand over the cookies and nobody gets hurt. . . Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 654 Registered: 11-2007 |
under the front passenger side seat, red car out in the parking lot. The door's locked, you'll have to climb in over through the hatch in back. Look out for the tire iron and the bumper jack, but you should be fine. There's two boxes, SHARE them. | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1206 Registered: 04-2007 |
Okay, I'll share. I'll have the oreos and the chocolate chips, you can have the fig newtons. | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2985 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dearest ~M~ Thanks for the hug. As you can see I have never acted on those feelings. (Or maybe I have, but no one noticed!) I think Deb makes a good point. I like the term "dominant aesthetic." It covers the tastes of the times, what's gone before here at Wild, and the poetic constructs that history has told us works. Some of it can be gleaned by spending time here, but some is just, well, you either have it or you don't. That being said, my new view is that it's not necessary for any poet to write to that aesthetic. What works one year may be replaced by something much different the next, so that would be a waste of time and effort. The same is true of comments. As writers we are going to get a lot of different types of comments, some speak to poetic constructs, some to emotional reactions, and some may not apply to the goals we set out, but all are useful. I've been thinking a lot about negative comments. I think if a poem is really not working for a reader they aught to say so. But it's important to remember we grow as readers of poetry, as much as we grow as writers. However, the frustrating thing about growing is you hardly ever know where you are. So, take all comments as acts of love and kindness, from wherever that person is. E- I wanted to respond to your note to me. No, I didn't think you were being flip in your response. I get what you are saying about broadening our horizons, I get that more input leads to better vision of our own work. What I am trying to nail down is the effect of competition here at Wild, not in general. The fact is that we're a relatively small group, measuring our work against each other week after week. I know that the POW started out as a just that- an honor. Then, the awards process and IBPC began, and an effort to reward the best was underway. My question was posed to elucidate the effect that has on us as artists and on our community. I've come to the conclusion that just as Jesus quoted Deuteronomy saying: "the poor will never cease from the land," we will also always have the best with us, and we just have to learn to live with them. One more thing: I find there is always much to admire in every list of HMs here at Wild. When taken as a learning tool, it is very effective. So, it’s really much more than a well deserved pat on the back. -Laz | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 22169 Registered: 07-2001 |
"the poor will never cease from the land," we will also always have the best with us, and we just have to learn to live with them. I can live with that... Grin Smiles. Gary | ||
| Ron. Lavalette
Intermediate Member Username: dellfarmer Post Number: 682 Registered: 05-2007 |
Fig Newtons? Did somebody say Fig Newtons? Don't get me started. (Judy, I know I can trust you; you better get me out of here right off. They're talking Fig Newtons. Clearly, they don't know my secret, my secret recipe...) --Ron. Eggs Over Tokyo | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1210 Registered: 04-2007 |
That calls for a recipe poem. Okay Ron, we're waiting. | ||
| judy thompson
Intermediate Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 659 Registered: 11-2007 |
easy, now, Ron. Think of England. Deep breaths, deeep breaths. no no, not that deep, you'll pass out... back away slowly, now, the door is right behind you, one more step. Now another...there's a good lad *g* | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5270 Registered: 08-2003 |
Laz, thinking on your last point I agree. I remember going to a drawing class and being surrounded by a number of incredibly talented people. It was really daunting. I gave up (that was years ago) because I didn't think I had inborn talent. These days, I put much less faith in talent and more in dedication, discipline and practice. Some of us may have to work harder but I do I think anything is possible. I can be competitive but I don't write poetry with that intent. I think creation comes from a sort of sacred ground (at least for me). I think of the basic principal of on-line workshops, a place where we can share ourselves via the medium of words with others. e www.wordwalkerpress.com |
