| Author | Message | ||
| FatMan
Member Username: fatman Post Number: 61 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hi, I am still getting to know the site. What immediately struck me is that board members are very friendly (a good thing) and civilized. However, I sometimes feel that criticism is dished out sugar-coated (could be a good thing, but I don’t think so), even in Biofeedback – the heavy critique forum. As a newcomer, it’s obviously not my place to judge the site’s mores, but I personally feel that a little bit more pepper would probably (I’m trying to phrase this as carefully as I can) be more beneficial in helping people truly develop their poetic talents or discover the lack thereof. In addition, I don’t really get the site’s structure; people participate in a variety of forums. While I can understand why one would (f.i.) post something in a community forum and LV / BF / CV, I don’t understand why anyone would post in CV AND BF. I noticed that some of the more interesting poets (yes, that is just an opinion) do just that, making it hard to keep track of their work. And making it even harder to comment upon those poems, as I don’t feel I should be criticising a poet one way in forum X and another in forum Y. It would feel, well, dishonest to me. Wouldn’t it be better (in the long run) if people just opted for a single forum, or progressed through them, if you will? I don’t see why you would invite heavy critique on one poem, and (I’m exaggerating here) only praise on another. Just some thoughts! Tahoma, Erwin | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 27082 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Erwin. I assume you have already familiarized yourself with this page, but just in case you haven't, please click on the following link: WPF FAQs I point you in particular to the discussions of the various forums here at Wild and how we imagined they might operate (fortunately or unfortunately, imagining or planning for something is often quite different than how it actually plays out in reality). As to what you wish from critique, all you need do is outline your requests for more "peppery" crits in your profile or note this desire at the top of your poem threads. Something like "give it to me straight and don't sugar-coat it" could go a long way toward getting you the level of assistance you wish. I know I try to tailor my crits to the individual, and it's probably safe to assume that others do so as well. What level of "pepper" works for one poet is screechingly unkind to another. As to why someone would post in the various forums, this is my educated guess. There are some poems that we write about which we feel a certain sense of security. We feel that we've got things pretty sewn-up, so to speak. These poems don't need much crit and so we would suggest they be posted in CV where they are most likely to get praise without a lot of crit. Then there are poems that aren't working like we'd want them to, so a more critical eye is required. We need more help with them and we feel more confident about someone dismantling them at a core level, so we'd suggest posting those efforts in BIO where the crit is more detailed. And then, for those poems about which we are totally lost, either without confidence in our execution or whether the poem as a poem even works at all, what we need is some life-saving or rescue or even advice to scrap it and start over and, hence, SUBLUX, would be a good choice. SUB is also good if you've never tried a certain form before (sonnet, let's say) and are wobbling about on untried feet. We also ask that our beginners start there. Poems are all individual creatures just like their authors. Some poems come out fully formed, some poems need a lot of assistance to reach their peak. I don't think it's being dishonest to speak to a poet one way in one forum, and another way in another. Our poems, like children we may have, are not the always the same in spirit or in need for discipline. Each poem requires different handling even though the author is the same. Speaking for myself, some poems I've given birth to are real angels, others cause me a devil's worth of trouble. *smile* Yes, you can move through the various workshops here in some sort of progression, or you may jump back and forth given the individual poem and your confidence level about it. We wanted to keep the forums open to all these things. Of course, the forums in actuality may work a little differently than that. People usually find their own way and the forums that serve them the best. Each individual poet works differently here at Wild and we hope the variety of forum types allows them the latitude they need to address a variety of situations and circumstances. Hope this explains our thinking a bit better. People are such individuals. What works best for you might not work for someone else. I'd recommend that you use the forums in whatever way feels most comfortable to you. As you become more entrenched here, it will probably become more obvious how you want things to work, and it will become more obvious to us how we can give you what you seek, whether that be intense help with some poems and/or mere appreciation of others. When a person is new here at Wild, I don't want to give them both barrels as I'm afraid I might frighten them away. Some people like intense crit, some hate it. But when they open the door to heavy crit, I try to satisfy the request. Since you've made your feelings known, I'll keep that in mind as I run across your work. No sugar for Erwin -- right, got it! Best, M (Administrator) | ||
| FatMan
Member Username: fatman Post Number: 63 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hi M, I'm really pressed for time today, so I'll have to keep this relatively short. Thanks for your very balanced reply. I used to post on (non-US) forums where criticism of the heavier variety was considered almost holy and an art form in and of itself – something that helped me to develop a personal style (for better or for worse) of sorts. To me, criticism should come in only one flavour: straightforward and well thought-out, without ever getting personal. That said, I understand why the site is set up as it is, and I fully appreciate the concept of catering to different 'criticism tastes' – exactly the reason why I only reply to posts in BF. :-| I have trouble with 'catering critique to the individual', as it would feel – well, if not exactly dishonest than certainly unnatural. I don't think that "adjusting the level of pepper" is necessarily fair, much less that writing crits according to one's best abilities and personal standards could ever be "screechingly unkind" to anyone, provided that arguments are put forth and the criticism ascends the "hated it" level. A single compliment by someone who criticises sharply would mean more to me than 100 favourable comments of the more general variety. Adding a request for sharper criticism is not a bad idea as such, but since I post in BF exclusively, that shouldn't be necessary according to the FAQ. ;-) Thanks again! Erwin | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 2434 Registered: 05-2006 |
Erwin, I used to be a moderator at a forum where harsh, often vicious critiques were welcome. I tried while I was there to put an end to the worst of the poet-bashing, and had limited success. Unfortunately, I found myself succumbing to temptation and collecting notches on my own gun. That's one reason why I got fed up and left. As well, I got tired of people commenting on my poems with stuff like -- I can find better drivel than this scratched in the enamel inside a toilet stall at the bus depot. How dare you waste my time with this crap! Once you've been around here a while, you'll find it comparatively easy to tailor the "edge" in your critiques to the skin-thickness and receptiveness of the poet. Best, Fred | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 8294 Registered: 07-2002 |
Erwin, One of the things to keep in mind is that Wild is a highly diverse place with members ranging from teenagers to adult writers and from the poet sharing their first work to a wider audience and poets who are widely published. Given that diversity, I believe it is inappropriate to offer the same critique to each poet. The kind of critique I invite (give it to me straight--everything from words choices to line breaks to voice) would be bewildering and perhaps overwhelming to the begining poet. For example, a 13 yo writing about the pain of his first break up doesn't know that what he's writing is cliche. For him, it's fresh and new because it's the first time he's put together those images. The way I look at it, is you are giving only the feedback that the poet will be able to process. When we organized the forums at Wild, we tried to make it clear that BFB and CV existed for different depths of critique. For the most part, it works, with poets looking for general feedback and sharing posting in CV and poets looking for more in depth critique and commentary posting in BFB. Best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| FatMan
Member Username: fatman Post Number: 67 Registered: 09-2007 |
Alright. You win. Too many good arguments and I am getting thirstier by the minute. ;) I'll just stick with BF for now. Those posting in other forums will simply have to do without my brilliant crits, divine insights and Nobel worthy wisecracks. I know it's tough people, but I am sure it can be done. Erwin, just kidding | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 27085 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Erwin -- thanks for your further exposition on this topic. I do understand your viewpoint and your explanation. That doesn't mean I agree with them. *smile* Once upon a time, I used to be a teacher. If I did not tailor my instruction to my students, unfortunately, I would have had a classroom in which there was a distinct division and an unnecessarily high level of failure. Not everyone learns in the same way -- some are visual, some are verbal, some a combination of both. In order to address all my students, I had to teach in the way that each student learns. Yes, this requires more time and effort on the part of the teacher, but it does ensure that not so many get left out or behind. The classroom, on the whole, is a healthier place with a greater number of satisfied and successful students. I believe you can apply the same principles to critique. Like Goldilocks, some like it soft, some like it hard. But what I hope to achieve is nearly everyone saying, "Ah, that was just right." Of course, you can feed everyone hot porridge, but not everyone likes hot porridge. And those who don't will end up very unhappy and they will most likely leave to search for that omelet they wish was on the menu. Hardly anything in comes in one flavor, Erwin. Why should crit be any different? The objective here at Wild is to attempt to meet the needs of as many different individuals from as many walks of life as possible. Imagine if you walked into a store to buy a suit and they were all one-size-fits-all. Unfortunately, as the nurse who gave me a gown to change into at the doctor's office the other day said, "This is a one-size-fits-no-one." We've been running Wild for nine years now (in fact, today is Wild's birthday). Trust me when I say that the kind of crit I can give someone like Lisa, a pro who's been published, would curdle the blood of someone with a thinner skin and less experience. So much so, that this less experienced person would leave Wild, sometimes in a huff. This site doesn't thrive on forcing people to bend to its will. It thrives because we respect the individual and individual needs, tastes, and requirements. Do what feels comfortable to you, Erwin. Wild is broad enough to encompass you and those who would not agree with you. You will find those who, like you, want their crit straightforward and well thought-out, without ever getting personal. I would recommend that those are the people you should spend your time on and from whom you will most likely receive exactly what you seek. Best, M |
