| Author | Message | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Valued Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 113 Registered: 05-2007 |
Feeling a little feisty this morning I guess, but I'm curious as the Wild is a site where I am reading some fantastic works of many types and forms - and yet - also hearing there needs to be specific formats, language or styles to be published or gain readership of your writings. The following is excerpted in part from my own response to a critic a few years back, but I'd like to put my finger on the pulse of those who are truly interested in maintaining poetry as an art form, one that can be appreciated and proliferated long after we are gone. I guess you might call me a heretic in the almighty churches of Modernism/Post-Modernism if you like, but can't simple truths be meaningful and communicated in a poem/prose-poem or a writing that does not have to maintain a specific form? Discipline aside, as learning and practicing specific forms do build our skills as writers, should a poem always be propaganda of some special interest or cause, or a depiction of conflict resolution and/or despair when the drama continues rather than be resolved? Have we lost the ability to see the joy and light in words, even those that may seem to communicate darkness? Some pieces I write could be viewed as a tribute to today's profane world, where even the smallest pleasure may actually be a suffering; another may be a piece that tries to help the reader become more acutely aware of the fact that intimate moments may no longer even exist in our lives. Some are an expression of the appreciation of the natural beauty of things I see around me, perhaps natural, or even unsigned chalk graffiti on a city sidewalk. I like reality in writing, even when it's abstract. It tastes like bread. That’s not to say I don’t like fantasy - it sparks my imagination. But I think by contrast to many writers I have read recently, I am an optimist and I like a little jelly to go on my bread, if I can get some. Eat what I have on hand, scrape off the muck, consume it even if it is moldy. Pray I don’t get salmonella or E-coli. Take Pepto-Bismol or Immodium if I do. LOL. I think it is sad to see so little hope or optimism in poetry today, although this is nothing new, I suppose, and is reflective of the human condition? But many poems I write are not confessionalist trips through my inner psyche or some abstract intellectual response to a broad cultural issue, or a tip toe through existentialism. It is merely recording history as I live through it, sometimes lending my own perspective or experiences, sometimes lending personal elements to the record, sometimes vicariously imagining how others might feel in their experience of it, while other poems bring historical references or have been gleaned from other writer’s perspectives (but not plagiarized, lol!) Poems that illustrate how cyclical life and these events can be as perhaps a bit of education and a warning, yet an expression of how we, as writers can overcome them, and write on. With or without a special form. A mind-dump after observation, sometimes research and lots-O edits, if you will. LOL Do writers today have to have a specific niche or gimmick to get published and engage a loyal army of readers who will buy their works? By contrast, there are many wonderful poets out there who embrace this philosophy of creative writing, are lucid, skilled in their craft and write in this manner but are not read, may not even be understood by "everyman." Some poetic elitists might say "that's good!" Let's keep it that way, keep poetry "pure," by our suffering for our art, by our very example, proliferate the craft in this manner - teach our children/students well whether or not our works get read, at least maybe not until after we're dead ... but I like writing in a more "public idiom/forum," I *want* to be read, inspired by others, my writings understood, maybe even misunderstood at times, because by the comments of sometimes random readers, I generally learn other perspectives on the issues of which I write. It teaches me too by their very misperception of my intention in writing a piece. Serious writers and errant writer comments are always welcome for critique,or even, "I think I got it" or "I didn't." It makes me a better, stronger writer, in my opinion. Opens a dialogue, hopefully in a positive environment that allows for meaningful sharing. Might show me another view I had not even considered, even if I disagree with it. We can still agree to disagree, maybe this might even inspire another poem by the writer or the reader! I like having broader appeal, with or without the paycheck for it - at least for today. But do you have to get published, write for a newspaper or magazine/e-zine, to be read? Or are workshops enough to be appreciated? How many hits have you had on your blog or web site lately? If you have a following, does that make you a real poet or writer? Wallace Stevens said "The purpose of poetry is to contribute to a man's happiness." I like this, although there may be a narrow-minded purpose to some writers' creative exercises. I miss the joy in Post-Modern poetry, and the humor; the sharpness of a catchy story, a vivid snapshot of a real human moment. I know I am not alone in this view, at least I hope not. Does that make me a poetic elitist? Who knows what will define the "Post-Post Modern Era?" Maybe it will be something more "healthy" for our craft, something more reflective of the continual healing required in dealing with the events that come at us fast and furious in our own lives, relationships, and those that we see on the screen, the newspapers, the “media,” the Web, books, radio, etc. all spun into works by writers who document the events as a way to relieve their fears or stress but still try to express hope and faith that our purpose is to show there is still much to be joyful about, despite the dark days we are living in, and express this through their writings to encourage others by their own example. Or maybe it will be a downward spiral of human despair, driven by escapism and isolation and exhaustion as we push ourselves farther away from each other as a result of too-full lives, less human contact due to technology and a growing lack of identity or purpose. (Anyone remember the book from back in the '70s - "Future Shock," by Alvin Toffler, I think is the author's name? I got that message loud and clear. We're living life even faster now than even that author could have predicted. Someone needs to write a version of that for the new Millenium!) I truly don't know where we as writers may land, it takes all of us is where I end up, in all shapes and forms and styles. For me so far, it has been and is an amazing journey to follow the evolving nature of this craft. What defines today's poetic era? Ultimately I think it is diversity, tolerance, and education, the use of technology and our writing skills in a wise way that educates and proliferates our right to expression, reaching and validating this for as many as possible, old and new writers, as writers. I believe it is what will keep poetry alive. Well, that's my two-cents worth for today. Tomorrow I may have a different opinion... lol Thanks again, would love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Best regards, Tina Hoffman (Message edited by tina_hoffman on August 30, 2007) MySpace currently under construction... "Make love, not malls." - Tina Hoffman | ||
| Jim Corner
Advanced Member Username: jdc Post Number: 1494 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hi Tina, while I want my poetry to be identified by poets, I work to write for the reading of the masses. Fresh language is desirable, but if the person in the pew or on the street does not comprehend, what the heck I'm just sound and fury. I love nature, mystery, love and romance, but I also like political comment (well said and poetic), irony, emotion, disaster and my own stream of consciousness. As a guy with an inductive approach, I love to turn detectives upside down, smile. My best, Jim | ||
| Vienna
Senior Member Username: vienna Post Number: 664 Registered: 11-1998 |
Interesting and very thoughtful post Tina. Having briefly surfaced from all manner of junk and 17th century literature exam, I'll try to answer a fiew points from my own perspective...which may or may not make much sense! I have always felt a compusion to write and paint. Had no formal training in poetry untill I started my degree course two years ago, and was quite shocked that the vast majority of the poems and poets studied wrote rather depressing stuff about politics, death- and the inevitability of it - or grubby, 'kitchen sink' poetry about parental alienation failing relationships and violence. I thought it all rather Bleak, although there were some gems amongst them....especially from Heaney and of course my second fave poet, Hughes. In the main, it all seems rather like some post punk legacy of grumbling dissatisfaction and angst. I mentioned Neruda in a lecture once...but I think I got away with it  I like to experience poetry which is a thing of beauty, something that is evocative and sensual ...i prefer a perfect sunset over the high fells to smog over the nuclear processing plant. To me poetry should, in the main, be a celebration....even if the subject matter is very sad...see our good friend Dale's work for some excellent examples of what I mean. As for writing to the current market's taste, mmm I can adapt my paintings to some extent to be more 'commercially viable', but simply cannot do this with poetry. The main criticism I get from my (sometimes rather exasperated) tutors at uni is that I am 'too 19th century' Having said that, I have written some more lighthearted pieces especially for open mics, but they are not too far removed from my usual stuff. I'm never gonna get rich or even scrape a living from writing poetry, and interestingly, all my published work has been in the US, with only two poems being published (in print) the UK...maybe there's a poetic cultural divide there, would be interesting to hear the views of others on this. Basically I'll go my own way with poetry, agree with Wallace Stevens, and keep my words coming from the heart. If wishes were horses..... | ||
| Jim Corner
Advanced Member Username: jdc Post Number: 1497 Registered: 09-2006 |
Hi Tina, are you seeking opinions or is this process to be a transparent thread for interaction? Or both? My best, Jim | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2042 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tina- I think this week's Creativity Challenge goes a long way to explaining what we do as poets. But I'm sure there are many other equally viable explanations. My guidelines in this pursuit: I keep two notes by my desk: what is the bigger issue? and creating the conversation. I can't write with these in mind, but I can edit and determine if my work speaks to "others" based on them. If it doesn't, I consider it journaling and move on. -Laz My Web Page | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 2018 Registered: 05-2006 |
If you think like everybody else thinks, but craft your poem so that this thinking takes "work" on the part of the reader to generate and re-generate the poem's packet of meanings, many will rave about the poem, even though, since it merely reiterates preconceptions, it does very little to enrich the culture. On the other hand, if your thinking is somewhat alien, and carries within itself the potentiality of enriching the culture through its expression -- and then, if you craft your poem so that it takes "work" on the part of the reader to generate and re-generate the poem's packet of meanings, even many astute readers will not "get" the poem. So, my advice -- do what the slam poets always do -- aim your poem to reactivate the audience's prejudices and preconceptions. Though the culture will be no richer, you'll have lots of fun and get laid a lot. Fred (Message edited by sandiegopoet on August 30, 2007) | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Valued Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 115 Registered: 05-2007 |
Jim, yes, both. Fred, huh? MySpace currently under construction... "Make love, not malls." - Tina Hoffman | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2048 Registered: 10-2005 |
Fred- I get you. I don't know how, but I do. -Laz (off to go reorganize my packets) My Web Page | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 307 Registered: 07-2006 |
What is poetry? In one sense, poetry is anything another person would call a poem. Me, I would say the last page of The Great Gatsby is a prose poem. Furthermore, any poem that is merely a little anecdote broken into lines is pushing the definition a bit. Again my opinion. Generally I would say anything containing strong images, some sense of rhythm, any number of sonic devices, includes more figurative language than prose generally would, and "lifts the eyes beyond the page" is poetry. Really that last part, giving someone a new way of looking at something common, giving a deeper understaning of the simple, or communicating something deep in a beautiful way is the most important to me. Good examples? How about Fredderf pointing out that dog's nightly barks actually defend against alien attack, or Lazarus likening a fist to a rock held by the wrist, Andrew Dufresne calling a moonset "a collapse". One final example from a poem by A. R. Ammons. In "A Winter Scene" he describes a jaybird hopping around the bare limbs of a tree: then every branch quivers and breaks out in blue leaves. I have yet to see a Bluejay since reading this, and not remember the poem. I think this is at the heart of Wallace Stevens' quote, and the heart of true poetry. Just my thoughts. I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Valued Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 116 Registered: 05-2007 |
LOL, Laz, organize away. I got Fred too, I just wasn't sure why he would write poetry just to get laid?  Other posters, digesting your wonderful thoughts and opinions and will be back to respond as others, hopefully, also come along to weigh in. I appreciate the great suggestions on other poets to read that I have not read either, as well as a little better flavor of the writers on this forum I have not yet read, a pretty good bunch as far as I can tell across the various forums on Wild! Thank you, and best regards, Tina MySpace currently under construction... "Make love, not malls." - Tina Hoffman | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 2023 Registered: 05-2006 |
There is something to be said about being a poetry whore. You know, standing on a busy street-corner, taking tricks (in a manner of speaking) by spreading poetic thighs to whoever pays. A man comes up who's just lost his brother. You pull out a weepy lament and -- as you read it -- the two of you sob together. A woman comes up who just got fired from her job. Out comes a Promethean ditty, and the two of you shake fists together, defying the universe. She walks off reenergized, ready to weather the weeks of job-hunting. At the end of the day, you head home, weary of thigh, raw of fanny, yet strong of heart. Fred | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 18768 Registered: 07-2001 |
Some place between the ridgity of formal poetry, the conservation, right wing of the art (sometimes more interested in craft than art) and the anarchy of free verse, left wing (sometimes dismissive of craft and even of words). Some where between the extremes - poetry is. Smiles. Gary | ||
| Lisa E
Member Username: diamondwife Post Number: 56 Registered: 08-2007 |
I actually know very little about poetic form. All the rules, mechanics, etc. mean very little to me. When I read a poem I usually respond most strongly to ones that either make me laugh or touch my soul. If it flows and is readable and it has communicated something that is meaningful to me I enjoy it. As for what is poetry and what is not poetry, I really have no answer. When I read something I am not usually asking myself whether it is or is not a poem. For example, Tina, I really enjoyed reading your "Fried Potatoes" poem. The mental picture of your grandparents affection after so many years, your not looking, but still looking...I find things like that very refreshing. Why does everything have to be so depressing? Sometimes I use too many -ings, somtimes I'm a bit cliche and sometimes these things can be edited a bit, but sometimes I like them just the way they are. I always read your posts and part of the reason I do is because they are so real and a bit optimistic. | ||
| Teresa White
Intermediate Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 488 Registered: 01-2005 |
Tina, I'm just cherry-picking one portion out of your lengthy and interesting question on poetry, that is, the following: "Do writers today have to have a specific niche or gimmick to get published and engage a loyal army of readers who will buy their works?" I have noticed over the years that those writers who have a manuscript that contains poetry all relating to a central theme have a better chance of winning contests, having their manuscript published and so on. A prime example is Rita Dove's "Thomas and Beulah" - her 90-odd page collection of poems about her grandparents that won the Pulizter Prize. Another is a collection of poems by Carolyn Forché called "The Country Between Us" which is all about the war in El Salvador. Even poets I don't recognize who win contests I've entered, have winning manuscripts which contain poems all relating to a central theme. It seems, on the face of it, that the more "socially aggressive" the poems, the more chance for winning somehow. At least that's my take. ~Teresa | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Valued Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 130 Registered: 05-2007 |
Hi Teresa, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I tend to look at my writings as perhaps you do, as just another patch of fabric in the quilt. Or a bit of fabric in a rag rug. I could focus on one thing, and in fact I am, and that one thing is me. :-) But ever mindful of those who follow or who were here before that might add on...or allow me to throw in at least a can for the hobo's soup. lol We all grow through touching, loving and our experiences, imho, and I have enjoyed your writings over the years.... but do we really need that Pulitzer? ;-) Always appreciative of another writer's critical eye, Tina MySpace currently under construction... "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert, in five years there will be a shortage of sand..." -re-quoted of Milton Friedman by 21 year old Derek Merrin as his cell phone greeting, running against a 71 year old incumbent local area mayor who both seem to get along pretty well in council meetings... | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2066 Registered: 10-2005 |
Teresa- I read your post with interest. Thanks for that information. I didn't know poets could prosper so much from a niche. I always thought of our kind as roving journalist/artists writing about whatever catches our eye. But you make a pretty solid case for finding our voice through a subject. Are you saying that the ones who win contests do so with their poems on a central theme? Or do they get more attention because they have a manuscript like this, and then their other poems also receive more attention? You also use a term, "socially aggressive" for these series poems but is that necessary? Isn't it possible that poems written around an issue just tend to be easier to understand? -Laz My Web Page | ||
| khadija anderson
Intermediate Member Username: haikujunky Post Number: 381 Registered: 05-2007 |
Fred is right. If you're good you get laid alot.  ~k | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Valued Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 161 Registered: 05-2007 |
k - LMAO! I'm glad some writers get something out of this. Glad to see this thread is still inspiring dialogue among writers - that was the main intent alongside gleaning what I could in the way of poets and things to read to help my own quest as a writer. And the Wild certainly continues to deliver on both fronts... All the best, keep it going in some way, shape or form!!    Tina MySpace currently under construction... "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, OT OT!!" - Quoting an old friend, Spacegrass, likely thinking about the Wichita Lineman or his Dad the electrician... | ||
| cliff keller
Valued Member Username: cliff_keller Post Number: 220 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think i am going to take Teresa's and Fred's advice. I am going to write a whole volume of poems with one theme: poetry that will get me laid (more often and better). I am now taking any suggestions to heart. How about hanging out on a busy street corner with a cardboard sign: "Will write for Sex". Or dressing the part of Byron, hanging out in a bohemian coffee shop looking despondent, writing into a journal with a flamboyant pen. Or...? Might be more fruitful than my gallantry, banter, and cooking. Then again, if you read my recent posting "Write" on Biofeedback, you'll see how poetry has served me lately. Only half kidding, cliff |
