| Author | Message | ||
| veronique deshotels
Intermediate Member Username: nude_shoes Post Number: 843 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm inviting opinions. I'll start with mine. I think it's possible to over-workshop a poem, thereby not only skinning it alive, but plucking its sweet pit. Perhaps this is done in the quest for illusory perfection. I don't know one published poet who is satisfied with what is in print. Isn't it always about the next poem? The one undone? ~v~ | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 7647 Registered: 07-2002 |
Veronique--you bring up an excellent point and one I've thought a lot about over the years. There is a dramatic tension between art and craft (IMHO) and the poet must strike a balance in revision that retains the art even as he or she uses craft to create as flawless a container as possible for the poem. I believe to make a Poem (with a capital "P") takes both: (he)art and craft. The art cannot be taught--that is the spark of emotion/inspiration--the fire in the belly of the poetry. Craft can be learned and refined. But neither should exist at the expense of the other. Art without craft is emotion spilling from the page. Craft without art is soulless technique. Impressive, but cold. I think that many writers are perfectionists and are never satisfied with what they have created. And it's both necessary and dangerous to look outside oneself for critical feedback. Why necessary? Because I believe all artists have blindspots when it comes to assessing their own work. Why dangerous? Because it is often hard to decide what advice to take and what changes to make in a work. It takes time, hard work, and trust (both in the self and in the other) to know just how to take in critique. In many instances, critique ends up re-making the poem in the critiquer's image, rather than trying to help the poet zero in on his or her own voice. I think that kind of critique is detrimental to the poet and the poem. I believe that there is a point at which revision ceases to be productive and begins to be destructive--where it begins to distort the balance between art and craft. That 'just right' place is going to be different for every writer--perhaps even for every poem. Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 1783 Registered: 05-2006 |
~v~, A few thoughts in somewhat arbitrary order -- * * * * * The same thing can be said about relationships, where the meta-conversation about the relationship encroaches on/overtakes/overwhelms the direct, immediate process of the relationship. (At least with a poem, if it bogs down in meta-conversation, you can put the poem aside and let the hubbub abate.) * * * * * This is priceless -- thereby not only skinning it alive, but plucking its sweet pit. * * * * * In many poems (some would say ALL, but I'll stick with many) there's an emotional sub-text. It often goes like this: (1) A situation is presented that emotionally arouses the poet; (2) The situation is explored -- i.e. corresponding lines of meaning are followed up on -- but this must be done without killing the emotional charge of (1); (3) An accommodation or reconcilation is reached: something that provides provisional emotional & cognitive closure so that the poem can be said to have ended, without grasping for an "easy out." Too often, after workshopping and workshopping and workshopping . . . the emotional sub-text begins to weary. * * * * * Fred | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 1898 Registered: 10-2005 |
V- Your point is well taken. I think it is our job as critiquers to give advice on the readability of a poem, but not mess around too much with the heart and voice. There are many pitfalls of critiqing and I think it's worth mentioning a few that I have felt myself fall into now and then: 1. taking over- I get into editing and suddenly I feel like the poem is coming from my own voice. I try to stop right there and ask if this is really helping the poet or me. 2. undermining the poem- I'm sorry, but I have to admit that there is a degree of competition I feel for towards a good poem, and that I am capable of acting on it without realizing it. I might pick at a small detail that, on the whole, really doesn't change much, but to fix it would require some major renovation. These I try to stop before I post them. 3.expecting too much- I sometimes measure the poem against my own standards, thinking that my view of the world needs to be expressed. This requires stepping back and seeing the poem for what it is. If it says something meaningful, if it expresses even a small thing about the human condition, I try to back off. Well those are three guilty admissions from me. Make what you will of them! I continue to hope that I will not be influenced to do the wrong thing when I am trying to help a fellow poet, but I'm not guaranteeing it! -Laz (walking away with her head high, but looking back a lot) My Web Page | ||
| Jim Doss
Moderator Username: jimdoss Post Number: 3233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi V, I definitely think poems can be overworkshopped and revised too much. I believe in the necessity for revision, but there is no such thing as a perfect poem, and this striving for perfection in many ways can zap the life and spontaneity out of a poem. The world is made up of imperfections, as are people and poems, and it is the unique combination of these imperfections that creates a singular beauty, a mystery, a poem, and the signature that is each individual poet's voice. As the Oregon poet Tom Crawford says: " 'That a poem in some way stink, is what I look for' / Pound must have said that". He is writing about his goat eating a modern poetry anthology he was reading, but I think you can guess my interpretation of those lines: what is tastiest is not pristine. Jim My Blog Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| brenda morisse
Intermediate Member Username: moritric Post Number: 318 Registered: 04-2007 |
Hi v. Thank-you for initiating this subject. As soon as I read your post, I went back to a poem I had just critiqued and took it all back. Oh dear. I went totally overboard with the critique and just about changed everything. I feel so guilty now. On the other hand, I love when my poems are turned upside down, inside out, jerked and tightened. Words are elastic; I love to be shown how far they can stretch. with regards, brenda (Message edited by moritric on July 27, 2007) | ||
| Laura Ring
Intermediate Member Username: laura Post Number: 408 Registered: 05-2007 |
An interesting discussion. I think we can help address this be pointing out when we think a critique goes too far, or when the poet has revised the "sweet pit" right out of the poem. I've petitioned poets to restore things they've cut, or to stick with earlier versions entirely. And I've recommended cuts that later readers suggested the poet keep. I've noticed that more experienced poets have an easier time trusting themselves AND trusting critique. We newbies have a hard time knowing whether we're clinging to something because we can't let go of our darlings, or because we can trust ourselves to know when we've got something good... V, thank you for starting this! Best, Laura | ||
| Teresa White
Intermediate Member Username: teresa_white Post Number: 393 Registered: 01-2005 |
V, This discussion reminds me of what a journal editor once wrote me after I'd submitted a few poems to him for consideration. (He had formerly published me twice before). He wrote me back and said something like this: "I could easily accept two of these pieces, Teresa, but I've decided not to. My advice to you would be to get out of any workshops you are in--I'm afraid you are beginning to lose your voice." Well, you can imagine how devastated I was by his words. For all I knew, he wasn't even privy to the fact that I was, indeed, "workshopping" my poems. What I look for in others' critiques of my work is more a reaction to the overall poem...rather than whether this or that particular word is best or not. However, I do go by the rule of numbers. If, say, at least three responders tell me to change the same word, then I am highly likely to do so. If I were not willing to listen and follow others, then I would not participate on this forum at all. As for offering critiques to others, I have always found this extremely difficult. Even for the beginning poet...who may use cliché too often, or be bathetic, or write goofy love poems...it is my contention that the poet is doing his/her best...and some find it hard (or gets their feelings hurt) with so-called "honest" crits. I'm more likely to write a private e-mail. And if I followed each and every person's advice on one of my own poems, well...it sometimes wouldn't be fair to lay claim to the final version as my own work. So I do weigh each crit very carefully. I think we are all very fortunate to live in this age of computers...where we can connect with each other so easily...and get almost instant feedback. Like so many my age (hey, I have grandchildren) we wrote in complete solitude for years....heck, would you believe me if I told you it was a long time before I even knew that one even revised one's poem? Thinking the second version would mean a second poem and so on. I guess it is all a matter of balance and trusting those who offer critiques. And most of all, learning to trust ourselves. My best, Teresa | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 5232 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Veronique I think it is certainly a big danger that a poem can get over-revised and taken past its best point. As you say, lose the sweet pit that is the best part of the work. Workshoppers can be overly critical and not fully understand the writer's intent. After all, it is the poet who has the original inspiration and is ultimately responsible. But critiquers can sometimes I think be irresponsible in not being sensitive to the poet and their work. The poor poet can end up being bombarded with suggestions that divert them from the original intent of the poem. I usually have a pretty strong sense of what I want to do with a poem although I will say that I have sometimes become frustrated and/or disgusted with opinions I have received, and some poems of mine have been abandoned because of that.  Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 5609 Registered: 12-2003 |
Veronique, A good subject, this. When I crit I read the poem several times before I start suggesting. I try to find/feel the poet's voice/style and try not to veer too far from that with my crit. I usually crit on semantics like punctuation, capitalization, spelling, line breaks, gerunds, etc first. I strongly believe that a poem can be over workshopped and/or over revised, as in too many cooks spoil the broth. We do tend to be overly critical of our own work and that probably spills into our crits of other's work. I think an important thing is not to make other's work sound/feel like your own.  KYou're invited to: Wild Flowers Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary Words! Strunk | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 1799 Registered: 05-2006 |
Two real-world examples. * * * * I was attending the Idyllwild poetry conference. In one of the workshops, I shared a poem of 14 lines. The group decided that because it contained 14 lines, it HAD to be a sonnet. I HAD to make it rhyme. I HAD to give it the 8/6 tension/reconciliation structure. When I protested that I didn't want it to become a sonnet, and would they pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top just take the thing as-it-was and help me make it better, they practically stood like a chorus of singers, crooning "Sonnet, sonnet, sonnet -- oh, how we love thee!" Yech. * * * * * On another online forum, one critiquer -- a person of high prestige within the community -- went over my poem, striking out ALL the definite and indefinite articles. Because on that forum, if a high-prestige person says something about a poem, all the lower-prestige persons follow suit, half a dozen echo-people said, "Kill articles! Terminate articles!" So, just to humor them, I rewrote the poem and posted it WITHOUT the articles. Then the high-prestige person reappeared. "Migod!" he said, "this poem reads rough. It's clumsy and unmusical." The gang of echoes chimed in, "Clumsy! Unmusical!" So, I reposted with the articles back in place. "It flows a lot better now," the high-prestige person remarked, "but you STILL have so many articles." "Better flow! Better flow! Too many articles! Too many articles!" * * * * * Derf | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 5613 Registered: 12-2003 |
This might be a good time to interrupt with this. Introduction to Poetry by Billy Collins I ask them to take a poem and hold it up to the light like a color slide or press an ear against its hive. I say drop a mouse into a poem and watch him probe his way out, or walk inside the poem's room and feel the walls for a light switch. I want them to water-ski across the surface of a poem waving at the author's name on the shore. But all they really want to do is tie the poem to a chair with rope and torture a confession out of it. They begin by beating it with a hose to find out what it really means. *** One of my favorite Collins poems. KYou're invited to: Wild Flowers Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary Words! Strunk | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 1804 Registered: 05-2006 |
I tied Collins' poem to a chair, and beat it with a sociologist who used to host another poetry forum, and loved to use professorial status to trivialize any opinions about "social issues" that differed from his or her own. "Confess! Confess!" I cried. WHAP! WHAP! Alas, as only paper things can do, it creased itself into a narrow strip -- and slipped free of the ropes. Last I saw it, the poem was standing on a street corner with its buddies smoking a joint. "Lemme tell you about this idiot . . ." I overheard it say. | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 4512 Registered: 08-2003 |
Most of what could be said about workshopping has already been addressed so I'll add this one bit. At a workshop last year in San Miguel, my poem The Window was being workshopped with a group of ten poets and one faculty member. Some poets had enjoyed the enigmatic aspects of the poem, others had not. One of the poets in the group, a doctor piped up with a major protest. I read your poem, getting to the final stanza and I found myself at a loss. I FELT BETRAYED. BETRAYED!, she said. This went on for about 5 minutes (eating up my 12 minutes of crit time). It was so funny, I wanted to laugh. Like lady, get a life will you? My point is that people get so damn serious about it. They forget to have fun and let the poet have their good time too. She later came up to me and apologized. The crit should in my opinion, never stop the flow of the poet. If it does, it's wrong. A good crit will identify both strengths and weaknesses (if there are any). A crit like "I've seen better work from you" to me doesn't do anything for the poet (who is the one we're trying to help right?). Poet's write all kinds of poems, from interesting lumps of coal to polished diamonds. Does every poem have to win the Pushcart? Also comments like "not my thing" doesn't do much either." If it's not your thing, don't comment. There is always a flow to a thread. The initial reading, the comments that hopefully help the poet move ahead in some way and then the revision if needed. Posting poems in the thread that show how someone else has done it better, don't belong in a thread (IMO). Better to email that person individually then discourage them. Especially if that person is new. Just some personal observations. I love to crit and try to be sensitive to the poet in front of me. How they like to receive suggestions and what type. But that's just me! Okay, I'm off the soapbox for the moment. e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 5637 Registered: 12-2003 |
E, I agreee with most of what you have said here, but this leaves me perplexed: "Posting poems in the thread that show how someone else has done it better, don't belong in a thread (IMO)." Not sure if you're referring to in-line suggestions, which many here give, or if you are referrring to posting your own work in someone else's thread. Shrug. KYou're invited to: Wild Flowers Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary Words! Strunk | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 4531 Registered: 08-2003 |
Oh no, in line is great. That's what many of us do. "Posting poems in the thread that show how someone else has done it better." This means putting samples in threads (especially when someone is new) showing how such and so did that subject so much better to me is a delicate thing. If the poet asks for examples that's great but if someone comes along while a poet is trying to write a poem on a subject and uses examples to show them how what they are doing is off base by putting poems by accomplished poets in their thread that they are nowhere near yet in skill can be a discouragement. That's what I meant. It's one thing to show an example and say, you might want to take a look at how Joe Black wrote his poem on that subject and another to tell the poet that he doesn't know what he's doing and that he should see poem x, y and z and then puts it in the thread. I've seen it done and it ain't purty. E www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 1828 Registered: 05-2006 |
On a forum which (to protect myself against recriminations) I will call "Troll Town," ad hominem is routinely practiced. It's how you show off your IQ points, how your vitriol rises to the top, by the brilliance displayed in savaging a poet's character, while claiming to be addressing solely the text of the poem itself. If then, the poet puts up any kind of shield against the hail of invectives, a chorus of harpies whines "Defensive! Defensive! You're being defensive!" If the poet counter-attacks, a Maderator will intercede, and threaten to terminate the poet for gross violation of forum etiquette. Clearly, this kind of thing is more theater than poetry forum. As the Bard said, "All the world's a rage, and we are merely flayers..." Derf | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 5643 Registered: 12-2003 |
E, thanks for clearing that up for me. It is in bad taste to post accomplished works in other's threads. I guess I've never seen it at the few boards I visit. We all have our own voice. KYou're invited to: Wild Flowers Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary words! Avoid unnecessary Words! Strunk | ||
| veronique deshotels
Intermediate Member Username: nude_shoes Post Number: 886 Registered: 04-2007 |
Derf, Is that the place where you have to post a minimum of 15 detailed critiques before you can nudge in as much as one of your own senryu? Where the head mod says stuff like, "Oh, you've slid back. Recidivist! And just when I thought you were showing promise." Chop | ||
| Will Eastland
Valued Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 227 Registered: 07-2006 |
This thread reminds me of a couple off things. 1) In the essay at the beginning of whichever BAP Robert Bly edited he talks about the necessity of maintaining heat in a poem. The biggest thing I wrestle with in writing a poem is preserving the initial personal heat/passion in which the poem was first conceived. Sometimes the workshop process helps, sometimes it hinders, but I must say, I am my own worst enemy, often finding more eloquent (i.e. sterile) ways to say what I am saying until the reader is left feeling "so what?" 2. That line in the Billy Collins poem that goes something like, " . . . Sitting at the table waiting for a little flame to appear at the end of my pencil . . ." Again with the idea of insistent heat preserved on the page. |
