| Author | Message | ||
| Douglas Hill
New member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2007 |
I almost unleashed the first part of this comment upon someone who posted in another forum. Realizing part way through writing it that I could kill any desire to write ever again in this person, I decided instead to throw it up for consideration here. (Name of writer), you are doing a lot of "telling" and not much "showing" here. This is a concept you will see referred to quite a bit in writers' groups. You could compare it to explaining a joke. You have set advice to rhyme. I am sure there are readers who will argue this is poetry, that everyone has a right to write whatever he or she wants. That is true. But if you want people to read your work and be moved by it, you have to attempt to flex some intellectual and emotional "muscles". The fact that this piece has rhyme and somewhat regular rhythm suggests that you have the potential to write with impact. But it takes more than rhyme and rhythm; it takes rhetorical skill, the ability to evoke emotions through imagery, metaphor, symbol, sound patterns, and a whole host of writing skills that you can learn by studying the works of some of the writers in this forum and some of the poets who have gone before. These range all the way from the Brownings, John Keats, Robert Frost, Irving Layton, ee cummings, Leonard Cohen, Al Purdy -- there are multitudes more; the list is huge. Perhaps you already have these abilities; I cannot tell from this piece. But if you are serious about becoming an effective poet -- and since you are here, we must presume you are serious -- then you have to realize that there is an art, a craft to writing poetry. It is not arcane, but it can be elusive. Great poetry has been written with highly controlled rhyme and rhythm, as in Shakespeare's sonnets; it has also been written without any discernible adherence to sentence structure or capitalization, as in some of the amazing works of ee cummings or multitude of others. It may be sound or image centred, as in the ecstatic works of Gerard Manley Hopkins. And there is more. Poetry depends so much on the subtle nuances of word sounds, word play, layers of meaning, puns, irony, emotional context, and a raft of other effects, techniques and concepts as densely layered as image and symbolism, that spelling and and grammar are critical, but not as you may expect; for a word may be spelled in a non-traditional way on purpose for a reason, just as a traditional grammar rule or capitalization "rule" may be "broken" for effect -- for that reason, proof reading is imperative, since any careless error could totally undermine the writer's intent. Poetry is not an art for the sloppy; we invent new grammar all the time, but we do it with knowledge of the "rules", and we do it for a reason. Here I turn the wrath of my screed away from the hapless poet and address you, the present reader. There is much well-intentioned, but totally misinformed advice given in writing forums, particularly in poetry forums such as this one. Criticizing writing, poetry in particular, is not just a knee-jerk reaction, even though good criticism often is often based on a knee-jerk reaction; it is based on a covenant between the writer and the reader: that the writer writes with as much skill, invention, craft and care as possible; and the reader criticizes with due respect for the vast body of successful work already published in the past, and an open mind as well as a genuine intention to help to writer improve within the scope of a craft that deserves and demands respect. Yes, we have traditions, yes, we must keep an open mind; but there is a distinction to be made between great work and artless babbling. I could go on ad nauseam, but I leave the rest of the discussion to the response I hope this will provoke. If this issue has already been debated, I simply say that I could not find that discussion, and apologize for wasting your time. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 7163 Registered: 07-2002 |
Douglas, First of all, welcome to Wild Poetry. Second, I am glad that you posted this as a general conversation rather than as a specific comment aimed at a particular poet, both for the reasons you mentioned and because these are important issues for general consideration. Third, while I agree with most of what you are saying, I would like to caution you in terms of some assumptions. "But if you are serious about becoming an effective poet -- and since you are here, we must presume you are serious -- then you have to realize that there is an art, a craft to writing poetry." Not everyone who posts here is serious about becoming an effective poet. Many who post simply want a safe venue in which to share their writing. That is why Wild is structured the way it is, with several different sub-boards. It is my hope, as the moderator who hangs her shingle in "Biofeedback", to stimulate some of the serious critique you reference in your post. But you will also find (particularly in "Creative Visualization") many who simply comment on being moved by a poem and who shy away from any critical analysis or from offering substantiative critique. If you read the introductions to each of the sub-boards, you will see that this is as designed. The writers at Wild encompass the entire spectrum of writing development, from the beginner to the experienced, published poet. One of the joys for me as a moderator, is to see the growth of a novice poet as his or her voice matures and strengthens, to cheer that poet's first publication in a reputable journal, and to see that poet take first steps towards acting as mentor to a new, novice voice. Having multiple forums to enable that journey is as important to poetic development as the finely honed critique that helps polish craft. I look forward to getting to know you through your writing. Best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 7164 Registered: 07-2002 |
PS. I noticed that you have only posted in our "Subluxation" forum. This is our workshop, the place for: ". . .unfinished work, rough drafts in need of polishing, or poems that require major realignment. BEGINNERS most welcome. This is where we get down to the bones." Sublux tends to be the place where our newest poets work and as such, is almost a poetry incubator. The kind of critique you are referencing in your post would likely not be useful or helpful to a poet in the initial stages of writing. As a moderator, I try to tailor my critique to the stage of the writer. It has been my experience--as a poet, a teacher, and in my profession as a physical therapist, that feedback must be at the 'just right' stage in order to be most helpful. That 'just right' feedback is generally just slightly ahead of where the person is now. It's a process of shaping that best occurs gradually, over time, as the learner begins to internalize the feedback and is ready for the next stage. Thank you for opening the conversation. best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Douglas Hill
New member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2007 |
LJC: Thank you for your thoughtful response to my mini essay. As an aside, I should observe that I really admire Wild's division into forums with different intents. As you will appreciate, I am still trying to find my way around here. I am not much of a fan of detailed line-by-line criticisms (both as giver and receiver of same) as I have taught more writing courses than most forum denizens have taken, and have been writing professionally for over fifty years. I am much more interested in overviews with a few theories as to where a particular word or line did or did not solve or create a problem. Some writers wretchedly follow all advice while others protest any criticism of their perfect child. It has been my experience that the writer who always defends his work has much to learn and little to gain from criticism. I have sat in writers' forums, under contract to be there, and listened to writers who could not or would not learn from thoughtful peer analysis or any criticism at all. While I may sound as if I am too arrogant to profit from criticism of my work, let me tell you I stand in awe of anyone (and there have been many) who can give me an insight into my own work; but I have little time for someone who does not respect the craft. Unfortunately, there are many such "writers" on line who have no sense of the craft, but who think they are seasoned professionals. Don't misunderstand me: I have great respect for beginners who are trying to learn the craft, and I have spent decades nurturing them, with many satisfying results -- and I shall continue to do so. I just demand respect for the craft. I do rattle on. | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 1325 Registered: 10-2005 |
Douglas- I read your essay/comment with interest. I think you have some good advice to writers, but I think the overall tone is lacking. I have several teaching books designed to help poets improve, and they emphasise these points in a way that inspires the reader. If you are interested in providing this kind of help to writers you might want to research this type of book. Since you are relatively new to Wild you may want to withhold your advice to a writer until you are familiar with their needs and have read a few of their poems, or until you have a look at their profile which may help you know what they are looking for. In the meantime, continue to read and to respond to poems which move you, pointing out the areas that work is always a good idea. Once you spend some time at Wild I think you'll find that the needs of the writers are met by the participants, either through using the correct forum, or through familiarity with the individual. "The trouble with poetry is that it encourages the writing of more poetry" ~Billy Collins | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 25111 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Douglas -- Welcome to Wild, and thank you for starting such a stimulating discussion. Thank you as well for providing a glimpse into your own history as this is often very illuminating. Lisa has provided much information about the way Wild was intended to work, so I will try not to repeat all that. What I will say is that while we do hope to instruct and to nurture, Wild is not really a classroom. Not in a traditional sense, at any rate. Wild is a public forum, open to all regardless of skill level and intent to turn professional. A traditional classroom (let's speak of those at the university level) has its own way of filtering students. By that I mean people are normally required to pay money for the class. This, in and of itself, typically weeds out those who might never intend to pursue writing as a professional goal. Classrooms are also usually segmented into introductory classes, intermediate classes, etc. As much as is possible, people are directed into the appropriate class. Finally, writing classes normally have prerequisites, standards one must meet in order to gain entrance to the class. Yet another filter that tries to ensure that only those who meet the requirements are seated in that particular classroom. Online writing forums are not structured in this fashion nor can they be, if we're being honest and reasonable about what we can expect. As much as one tries as an administrator to ensure that the appropriate people with the appropriate skills land in the appropriate spot, it's difficult to guarantee that with any certainty. And so professionals land next to novices, those who are serious land next to those who write only for personal gratification, etc. Such are the issues when there are no prerequisites and no fees attached to accessing something like a public writing forum open to the world. I won't even get into differences in language and culture. No, you don't sound arrogant, Douglas. You are a teacher and your impulse is and always will be to teach. I know that because I am a former teacher myself. Unfortunately, open writing forums like Wild are not your classroom and you cannot bend them to your will. You cannot require that every person in the forum be there with the proper intent as you would if you controlled entry to your class. You must accept that there will be huge variation among the "students," and, like it or not, that some will be there only to throw spitballs at you. *smile* You cannot demand respect for the craft in an environment like this. You can command it, though. You can find individuals who seem most responsive to your instruction and mentor only them. We do not create these types of forums nor do we continue to work in them to change the world (nor to convince those who think they are seasoned professionals that they are not). That's really too lofty a goal. If you find just one person in an online writing workshop like this one who seems to respect your experience, values and advice, who appreciates what you can provide as a mentor and friend, I would recommend you spend your time cultivating him/her. I wouldn't attempt to throw "big guns" like your essay at the beginning of this thread at every person in a public forum. Not all people who populate a place like Wild have the time, skill, or even the interest to absorb it. To try to control more than that is to set oneself up for much contention, frustration, and/or disappointment. As I said in the beginning, thank you for opening this discussion. And thank you for giving Wild a chance. I hope something I've said will assist you in making Wild a personally rewarding place and experience for you. Best, M (Administrator) | ||
| Douglas Hill
New member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 15 Registered: 04-2007 |
Lazarus: Don't worry; I shall not be a bull in a china shop. That is why I started this discussion here. I have taken part in several forums, and understand that it is too easy to blow somebody out of the water, and I certainly do not want to see that happen. About "overall tone": I agree that one must empathize, and you may note that when I realized my comments would have been hurtful, I did not post them to the poet, but brought them to this stage to allow myself to vent and possibly, to stimulate such a discussion as this seems to have become. ;) | ||
| Fred Longworth
Advanced Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 1277 Registered: 05-2006 |
According to physicists, there is a sub-atomic particle known as the poetron. Human beings possess large numbers of these critters in their brains and hearts. Nobody knows why, but some individuals have many more poetrons than others. Unsurprisingly, there is also a particle known as the anti-poetron. At this time, the highest concentration of anti-poetrons ever recorded exists in Vice-President Dick Cheney. Amazing what you learn when you keep abreast of cutting edge physics. Fred | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 25112 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thank you, Fred, for proving my point in your own very inimitable way! *LMAO* Love, M | ||
| Jana Bouma
Valued Member Username: violamama Post Number: 232 Registered: 06-2006 |
Douglas, Thanks for your most interesting post, and welcome to Wild! The issue you bring up will always be a challenging one for poets. Writers and readers of poetry come to this art form with such a wide array of experiences and expectations that it can be hard for us to talk to one another about poetic generalities, much less offer (and accept) critique on one another's creations. I think one of the biggest challenges of my poetic life has been to find the rare poetic community that offers a workable mix of shared poetic values, on the one hand, and poetic diversity on the other. I've been a student and a teacher in college classrooms, a member of poetry societies, and a member of online forums. I'm fascinated by the different dynamics that arise in each of these settings, the ways in which these communities evolve (or disintegrate), and the ways in which they meet (or fail to meet) the needs and expectations of their members. Goodness--there oughtta be a book! I belong to a local poetry society that faces many of these challenges. Some of our members are distinguished poets. Others are apprentices in the craft. Others are self-identified writers of doggerel. Each month, we conclude our meetings with a "read-around," where each member may share a poem. One of our members, a delightful lady in her eighties, writes songs--and each month, she stands and belts out a jaunty number in common measure, and receives wild applause. This community-based forum is both a delight and a special challenge. Because the group is open to all, and because it is, perhaps, more about poetic "community" than about poetic "growth," we feel a special obligation to accomodate one another's anxieties and to welcome all levels of engagement with poetic "craft." It's a messy process. Sometimes, the serious poet gets frustrated; sometimes the more timid poet feels trampled upon by a well-intentioned critique. So far, the group has managed to struggle through the messiness. I take tremendous delight in the very elements that make this group a challenge. I enjoy the wide spectrum of humanity in the group--from elderly nuns to young web designers. And I love the spectrum of responses to a poetic presentation--from beginner's wonder, to perplexity, to anxiety, to ostentatious passing of judgment. I look forward with delight to each month's meeting. I also arrive at each meeting with a sense of trepidation. Perhaps this will be the afternoon when the whole experiment falls apart! Jana | ||
| Douglas Hill
New member Username: riverwriter Post Number: 18 Registered: 04-2007 |
Jana: what a delightful post! In the light of your anecdote, I have to relate here an experience I had this week in our local writers' society meeting. We did a read-around at the start of this week's meeting. When my turn came (I elected to read when there was a long pause while we waited for the next volunteer), I rose and realized I had been looking forward to hearing some comments on the piece I was about to read. I then read a poem that has unaccountably been the most popular piece on my blog, with fully one quarter of the hundred most recent hits. I introduced it with that tidbit, saying I was somewhat surprised, by that statistic, as the post is over a year old, and I had pretty well forgotten about it. It is a piece called "You're soaking in it!" I was about half way through reading it, when the door opened, and someone quietly entered and took a seat. I finished the reading, expecting a discussion similar to that which had followed each of the preceding pieces. Before that could start, the newcomer enthusiastically introduced herself and asked if she could read. The leader invited her up. She was very pleasant and although her piece was more than a little didactic, quite competent and somewhat entertaining. So much for me. I began to realize that in spite of my nonchalance, I really wanted to hear some comments on this piece I had forgotten about. I came to the conclusion that next time, I am going to hand out copies of the piece I'll choose to read so listeners can follow it. I wonder if that frustration is the reason I had for starting this thread? Again, I ramble. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garydawg Post Number: 987727 Registered: 07-2001 |
We only need 3 words of advice for a poet: Read Study Write All else is icing, though at times most tasty. Smiles. Gary |
