| Author | Message | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5657 Registered: 07-2002 |
I'm not sure the ending of my recent challenge poem "Suppose" is strong enough. (http://70.103.16.160/~wildpoet/discus/messages/373/41712.html?1161036018#POST209752) It's generic "mom watches kid and feels nostalgic." I'm struggling with these more simple, direct poems from my family life. Are they just sappy, personal pieces? Do they work as poetry/art? I read stuff in journals and I feel as if my voice is so out of touch with much of what's out there. But not everything is/should be obscure or earth shattering, right? I move through periods where I think everything I'm writing is cliche. I'm sitting here wondering if the world has moved on, or if there is still power in writing simply? Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| M. Kathryn Black
Senior Member Username: kathryn Post Number: 3341 Registered: 09-2002 |
Lisa, personally, I feel that any subject is allowed in a poem and I liked Suppose very much and thought the ending was just as strong as what went before it. I had an emotional reaction to it even though I've never been a mother. Mary Oliver was never a mother either so she wrote alot of nature poems. I don't think you can get more simple than nature. Some may disagree with me, but it's simpler than human relationships anyway. You've got a good poetic voice and you know that old adage: to thy own self be true. Best, Kathryn | ||
| penny august
Advanced Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 1064 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hi Lisa - from one who is obviously quite simple-minded, I must say I have always admired writers I didn't have to decipher. Not that I don't like/understand layering, but I personally prefer clear and simple voices, like Hemmingway or Steinbeck, Pearl Buck, Stephen King or even Tolstoy, who, although he wrote plots that were not particularly simple, I think wrote with a very straight-forward voice. Just my humble opinion. BTW, I found your poem very endearing. penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5658 Registered: 07-2002 |
Kathryn and Penny--thank you for your thoughts. I read over my original post and boy, do I ever sound like I'm feeling sorry for myself! (Hate it when my kids whine--hate it even more when *I* do it!) Sorry for that. I am seeing a split in the poetry world and it seems that the prestigeous print journals print complex and often arcane poetry. I dont much like Franz Wright for example--he won the pulitzer for poetry last year. I find his writing overly bitter and deliberately obscure. Maybe that's why there was such criticism in the poetry world when Billy Collins was named poet laureate a few years ago. He and ted Kooser write in more direct voice, as does Donald Hall, our newest PL. So maybe I ought not to fret, if our last 3 PLs are more direct voices. I appreciate your comments. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1540 Registered: 12-2001 |
Whatcha talkin here? No, it doesn't have to be earth shattering and yours are not simple! Good grief the skill you have is undeniable. True feelings and honest direct writing is the most difficult to chance sharing with others. I avoid myself in everything I do but you are not afraid to share yourself and that's what poetry is all about!  Bren PenShells | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9426 Registered: 07-2001 |
Simple works when the words work which they do in the hands of a good poet... Many haiku are simple and are many other short forms. We do not need everything to be Joyce or Eliot complicated. Sometimes we need Sandburg. And sometimes simple isn't as in Dickenson. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 6001 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Lisa I think simple, direct and unadorned often makes for powerful poetry, so I would not sweat the question too much. As you yourself have pointed out, there are direct and clear poets (e.g., Billy Collins and Donald Hall) and less clear and more esoteric poets such as Franz Wright and, I should add, somebody like John Ashbery. I have to admit I don't get Ashbery's work at all and find him somewhat of a fake and a fraud -- his work doesn't seem true or natural but rather contrived. So I guess what it comes down to is different strokes. There always will be publications that want the more esoteric and involved pieces but good editors should be open to the simple and direct, which I find to be the most moving type of poetry. All my best Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com/ Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net/ http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/ | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8711 Registered: 11-1998 |
Oh, dearie me. Lisa, the BEST poems are the simple ones. Case in point, this one, by Wislawa Szymborska, absolutely dropped me to my knees. I must have wept for ten minutes after I read it: Vietnam "Woman, what's your name?" "I don't know." "How old are you? Where are you from?" "I don't know." "Why did you dig that burrow?" "I don't know." "How long have you been hiding?" "I don't know." "Why did you bite my finger?" "I don't know." "Don't you know that we won't hurt you?" "I don't know." "Whose side are you on?" "I don't know." "This is war, you've got to choose." "I don't know." "Does your village still exist?" "I don't know." "Are those your children?" "Yes." I have read many poems about Vietnam. Many complex and technically skilled poems. But for me, none of them matches the raw power of what you just read. There is not a complex word or idea in it. Although it is wrapped around a war, it is at its base simply about a woman and her children. A mother's love. You can't get much more elemental than that. Mothers watching their children and feeling nostalgic, simple and direct poems about family life, might be personal, but they are not inherently sappy. The goal, I believe, is finding the core of the raw emotional power and putting that in the spotlight. Szymborska is a master at going right to the one, fundamental, undeniable truth and shining a laser light on it. In fact, I believe this poem I've quoted is so stunning precisely because it's so simple. There is a single spotlight here. She doesn't try to write about all the travesties of war. She does not list places and people and battles and war wounds and war crimes. She does not write about it from a male perspective. She does not attempt to address any other specifics except the one specific that speaks to every person whether they are a mother or not. She just very simply goes directly to the heart of our humanity. What is wonderful about her is her precision of expression. Her critics and readers love her because she is accessible and deeply human. No, not every poem needs to be obscure. But if you've done your job well, it can be earth shattering. Please keep in mind that earth shattering does not necessarily mean complex. Remember the earthquake -- it's really nothing more than the ground shaking, most of the time for under 30 seconds. There's nothing very complex about that. But it has the ability to completely shift everything. So do poems about family life. You won't write one like this Szymborska piece every time out of the gate. Even she doesn't. She has many poems that are just good to read and satisfying. Most times, we will write something that is poignant/touching and there ain't nothing wrong with that. You're not out of touch, Lisa, and your voice is not unskilled. Writing is something you will refine over a lifetime. Luckily, unlike a lot of things, writing gets better as the writer ages. Szymborska was born in 1923. Going through her collection in chronological order, I'm seeing a refinement that only comes with age and the experience/wisdom that accompanies it. And practice. Lots and lots of practice. Simple is good. Often it's so exquisite, it makes your teeth hurt. *grin* Love, M | ||
| Morgan Lafay
Senior Member Username: morganlafay Post Number: 2562 Registered: 08-2005 |
Dear Lisa, with the expertise in which you write, can you imagine my questioning of poems so far over my head versus the simple way I write? I don't know poetic forms at all. Of course I know who Icarus is/was; but without those last few lines (and really that didn't help much) it would have been...swoooooosh... totally unexplained to me. I know about blogging and I like lizards, but I can't fathom how either would 'affect all mankind.' You wanted to show the love you feel for your son ... a love that hurts, it is so strong. I wanted to help the world. Something good for the masses. But I "suppose" it was way too simple, like a beauty pagent contestant wishing for "world peace;" it broke in the wrong places; and was drab as porridge. I think you are very brave for posting your doubts. I've always been shy about my simplistic writing, and in no way expected to win. But I did not expect the winning poems either. In my very humble opinion there were other poems more honorable than the three selected. I mean no offense to the writers, because you are all excellent and have a great deal of experience and imagination. It's just the winning poems did not seem to match the subject, which I took too seriously, I suppose. Sorry; please don't exile me. I just had to voice my simple opinion. (Message edited by morganlafay on October 16, 2006) | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Intermediate Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2005 |
It's not what you write about, it's how you write it. You don't have any trouble with the "how" of poetry, and that's what counts. Here's my example from the Chinese poet Bai Juyi... a simple poem (deceptively simple, but undisguised) written over 1,100 years ago in another culture that still speaks across ages and peoples. Its longevity can be attributed, in part, to its simplicity: Dreaming that I Climb the Mountain Last night I dreamt Of climbing Sung Mountain, Striding out alone With my rattan cane, Past a thousand cliffs, Over ten thousand ravines. I enjoy them all. In my dream My leg was not paralyzed. I was healthy as in youth. But on waking, I returned to my senses, With the same disfigured flesh and form. Now for the first time I perceive truly That form can be sick And spirit healthy, Form and spirit are both illusions; Truth consists neither in reality nor dream. In daytime I walk with difficulty, In nighttime walk freely. Since time is divided equally Between day and night, Nothing is lost. Bai Juyi (Po Chu-i) translated by Howard S. Levy and Henry Wells "I had a lover's quarrel with the world." ~Robert Frost | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8715 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Morgan -- No exile, dear. You are more than welcome to voice your opinions. The basic problem with judging any writing competition is that the whole process is very subjective. Of course, you attempt to be objective, but writing is not really a quantifiable proposition. For instance, you can't apply numerical scores, add them up, and then place the crown on whomever gets the highest number of points. What you can do (and what I do attempt to do) is judge the entries on a number of different levels. Content is just one of them. Given these are poetry entries, it's encumbent upon me to try to judge poetic skills as well. Poetics (i.e., the skillful use of things like metaphor, simile, imagery, line breaks, consonance, assonance, alliteration, meter and rhyme, if applicable, and the list goes on and on) do weigh heavily. I also consider creativity and imagination high on the list. If an entry plays with the ideas presented in the Challenge and particularly if it surprises me by taking the requirements in a direction I didn't expect, I'm even more swayed toward that entry. I also look for poems that address a topic in ways that I've never seen before. If a poet can take a time-worn theme and make it new, that's another plus in his/her favor. I usually post a sample poem that I feel is a solid piece of poetry. If an entry meets or exceeds what the sample poem displays, that usually puts the entry higher on the list. Also, the Challenges each week are written to guidelines. For this week, for instance, here's what was said: "The subject matter can be anything you choose, from something small and deeply personal to something large that might affect all of mankind. Please keep this poem to 25 lines or less. Your poem will be judged on imaginative you are in your suppositions as well as your attention to poetic form." The subject matter could have been anything, something small or something large and imagination is always key. Attention to poetic form counts. Judges are not infallible and, of course, people will not always agree with my choices. It's inevitable that what I choose other people may not find appealing. Not everyone likes chocolate ice cream. But I do attempt to tell people why I've made the choices I have for the winning poem. That's why I always include a rather lengthy discussion of what I felt were the major strengths of the winning entry. People can then see that while the decision might be subjective, it is not arbitrary. No, you didn't take the subject too seriously, nor is wishing for world peace as drab as porridge. And just as I don't agree with what you said about your own poem, I don't agree with Lisa about her ending. I felt her conclusion was quite strong and her premise a great one. In fact, I felt all the entries were terrific and this was one of the harder Challenges to judge. As I said, content is only one of the issues under consideration when judging poetry competitions. Both you and Lisa did excellent work with the Challenge. But choices do have to be made. And I think if you read over my reasons for the selection of Michael's piece, you will see what impressed me about that poem. It addressed all major aspects of poetry -- content, form, imagination, technique, theme, etc. -- and scored very high on all of them. Execution matters. A poem is not just what it says; it is also how these ideas are transmitted to the reader. There is also an indefinable something that just makes a great poem click with a judge. It may be wit, it may be wisdom, it may be a particular turn of phrase. As I said when I started this, it's hard to quantify. Beyond all that, I hope that all the entrants in every week's Challenge understand that winning isn't the goal. Learning something new, trying something different, writing about something you'd probably never have thought of on your own -- these are the more important parts of participation in the Challenges. I often try to write my own poem in response to the Challenge. It gives me an idea of just how difficult it is for all of you. And mine are usually stinkers compared to all the other entries. Doesn't matter, though. What matters is that I learned something. My major objective when putting the Challenges together is to get people to stretch their poetic wings. Let's face it -- a week isn't nearly enough to produce a finished piece. If you at least enter and try, you should come out of the deal with something you can work on and refine and perhaps even make into a terrific poem. Seeing how other people address the same requirements is an important part of the learning process. Hope this helps understand the process behind the scenes. And please know that whatever you might think, judging isn't nearly as easy as it seems. It breaks my heart sometimes to throw so many good fish back in the lake because I have to choose just three. Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Intermediate Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 474 Registered: 05-2006 |
I found the following poem on the wall in a toilet stall in the English Department of a major university. I used techniques I saw on CSI to "lift" the words and transfer them to a plastic sheet, which I then scanned into my computer. The poem was untitled. The choice of title is therefore mine. Off the Wall Remarks Let's write poems that nobody understands. Well, not exactly nobody. The Chosen Few (who have super-high IQs and MFAs, and who themselves write laudably ultra- complex poetry) will grasp everything on the first pass. Idiots of course won't have a clue. They'll scratch their heads, and give you a look that says, "This is a little too deep for me." Which really means they're so shallow they could drown in a quarter- inch of spit. So, go ahead, spit on them. They deserve to die. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on October 16, 2006) | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 1074 Registered: 05-2005 |
Ok folks first of all, M hasn't said so, but each week she asks me to pick my favorites in the creativity challenge so she can confirm/deny what she thinks is the best work. now, as to that word 'best' -- what we are looking for is art, and that is a difficult thing to pin down. to start with, there is a difference between simple and complex as opposed to easy and difficult. both M and I think the best art is both simple and difficult-- that is, the work looks simple but upon further examination you see how difficult it was to produce, how hard to conceptualize, how unique a vision. i'm not immune, i've been to art museums and looked at abstract paintings and said 'anyone can splatter some paint on a canvas and call it art' and yet upon closer examination, there is something about a Jackson Pollock that is unique. Picasso invented cubism, not terribly difficult to paint but very difficult to think up, to conceptualize. i recently read a review of sharon olds' work and how it compared to sylvia plath's. the reviewer while giving sharon her due said she lacked what was present in plath's--that being both artifice and wit. another factor found in fine art is the element of risk taking, did the artist take a bold risk, you hear the the term 'a bold conceit' tossed around literary circles. That to me is all about how much risk did the writer take. So, good poetry is simple, difficult, takes risks, is unique, and finally, stunning (the kind of stunning that stops you in your figurative tracks). this is not the final word or even how everyone agrees poetry should be defined, you can find hundreds of definitions of poetry. but, its our approach in this little corner of the world thx for reading s | ||
| sue kay
Valued Member Username: suekay Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Lisa, I think the short answer to your question is "Yes." There is power in the simple, and the key is where it takes us, and how many of us does it drag along.? No doubt about it, the best poetry doesn't speak only to those who have the same experience; parents for example, cause we have all been children. So your poem at least for me, connects on both those levels(BTW I liked it a lot.) There is also a universal question about Time, as a metaphysical concern, told in a simple story. For me that is enough. You have to write what you know, it makes in my opinion the best work. Your supply of metaphors and conceits is not just what you know from books and literature, its your emotion, imagination, humanity and experience. An ordinary, even common image becomes extrordinary when its used with skill. (duh!) Which is why I liked this weeks winner. It simply made me think oh my at just about every little turn, and was so nicely distilled, every sense popped. But that is my personal opinion. As has been said here, there were so many good entries, it was not an easy job. Anyway, you should not question your writing(as a creative impulse, it can't be denied) but always question the craft. IOW, don't you dare think you shouldn't write or that you haven't got the right stuff for great work. ( I think I hear that question embedded in your other question) You do. And finally, I think the poem that Jeffrey cited is a marvelous example of simplicity and depth. I would say, that the best poems, can be self referential without being self reverential. We all know the difference when we see it. Trust the reader. There's nothing quite so tiresome as the ostentatiously intellectual or clever work that really is only a canvas for the writers self portrait. Not that arcane references aren't wonderful, they are just one tool, or colour in the palatte. But a writer who isn't in touch with his own humanity can't really touch another, no matter how clever his ideas, or his craft. Its about heart, grasshopper, hehehehehehe. regards regards | ||
| Zephyr
Senior Member Username: zephyr Post Number: 5011 Registered: 07-2003 |
Good question Lisa, you mustn't have these doubts surely you have skills and are a good poet, and you generously give time to pass those skills on to others which is much appreciated. I think most of the well loved poems and lyrics passed down to us through history are simple. I will admit, not all, but some of the academic and complex stuff loses me. Who are we writing for, Dons in uni, or the general public? Could that be why poetry is less popular with the public than the other arts? There should be room for both, I really would like to see poetry more valued by the general public than it is, most people are pretty busy these days and poetry should be easier to find the time for than a long novel or book and we are not capitalising on this. Then perhaps editors would appreciate poets better too. Few editors these days will take a gamble on a poet, most produce anthologies with one short poem and no more for each poet in each book - and hope to overcharge the poets for seing their one poem in print thus covering costs and any extra sales are a bonus for the publisher. In general nothing finds it's way to the poet unless they successfully market and publish their own work. Best wishes Zephyr Igor Stravinsky In order to create there must be a dynamic force, and what force is more potent than love? | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5659 Registered: 07-2002 |
Wow--you have all been so generous with your considered comments and time! My question/whine really comes out of reading published poetry and then looking at my own work which seems to take a different direction. I have been mindful of some of our discussions on formal/archaic language versus modern language and started to wonder if the kind of poetry I love most and write was also becoming 'extinct'. I love M's challenges for many reasons--first because they always push me to write something I likely wouldn't have written (wonderful when I'm in a dry spell), and second because I learn as much by her comments on the winners' poems as I do in writing my own. I never worry overmuch about winning. I know that's *not* a referendum on a poem's worthiness, only a limitation in deciding to select only a few from any group. And I wouldn't want M's job for all the money in the world! No way I could have only choosen 3 from this week's entrants! Thank you again. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5660 Registered: 07-2002 |
PS--and attending the Dodge festival threw me into a frenzy of self-assessment the last time, too. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Senior Member Username: kathy Post Number: 3739 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lisa, simple works best for me. When I write simply those seem to be the ones that find themselves with HM's or POTW's here. When I try something more difficult I usually can't find the end of it or it begins to not make sense to me and I don't finish. I like authors that write simply and directly because I find something in their work that I can relate to, sink my teeth into, feel, and believe. And I don't like to read things 10 times just to understand them. Too much like school. I like your poetry very much. It's honest. So no, "simple" is not the kiss of death. KKathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9428 Registered: 07-2001 |
I'm glad Jeff posted a Chinese work. Perhaps the simpliest poem written is Wang Wei's Deer Park; but it volumes have been written about it, it has been misread, mistranslated and lost meaning in the hands of some. In the empty mountains, no one; but the sound of men echoes. Light returns to the dark forest to illuminate moss and leaf. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1542 Registered: 12-2001 |
But we can't forget that the title of this Challenge was "Just like Magic" and our cue was to "Suppose" which leaves the avenue wide open for lots of supposing. It was wonderful to have such an open invitation! I didn't read one that I didn't like from start to finish. In defense of imagination in poetry, life could become so real that we would all be crying constantly. I would never discount humor and I think it's unfair to label things that aren't written simply as contrived. All poetry is meant to illicit some feeling or reaction from the reader so all could be labeled contrived. Maybe? Maybe not? As one who writes from the very weird side of everything I sure hope it's okay to do that as well.  Bren PenShells | ||
| Fred Longworth
Intermediate Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 482 Registered: 05-2006 |
Lisa, Both in person and on the internet, I've run into numerous persons for whom difficult, ultra-complex, inaccessible poetry is a culling tool, a way of distinguishing those who "have it" from those who don't. Get to know them a little, and they'll tell you about an elite inner circle of super-intelligent poets who understand all of Jorie Graham, who revel in poems that have to be deciphered. There's a gal here in San Diego who leads poetry seminars whose favorite word seems to be "simplistic." The creator and head-moderator of one popular online poetry site (won't mention the name, but it's not The Gazebo) known for its cruel crits only writes and prefers to read poems that most mortals have to look over a dozen times to get even a glimmer. When one tries to bring up that there are many styles and genres of poetry all yoked together under the rubric POETRY, they give you this "that's what all the underlings say" look. And you know dialog is hopeless with self-proclaimed genii and avatars. Steve Kowit has written a wonderful how-to book for poets called In the Palm of Your Hand. He celebrates strong, yet accessible poetry. * * * * * And Lisa, I much enjoy your poems. Fred | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1543 Registered: 12-2001 |
I would hate that as well, I think it takes all kinds to interest all kinds. Being told what is and is not poetry is a joke anyway, who would listen to one person or one group of persons? Writing should be free for both the interpretation and the writing and what's preferred is always a matter of taste for the reader to choose. If not who are we writing for? Bren PenShells | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2605 Registered: 12-2003 |
KISS always works. For me poetry is about emotion more than intellect anyway. Poets like Ashbury and Graham put me to sleep in a New York minute, whereas Lorca and Neruda are eternally charged with life, and deep and wide as the ocean. Only the academics want to read academic poetry, and coo over their own genius. The rest of us poetry lovers want to read poems that could be shaped out of our lives and experiences, that draw us into simple complexity of being alive and away from the dusty library stacks. My Blog Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5668 Registered: 07-2002 |
Dear Bren--I wasn't refering to your work at all in my diatribe. And I agree with you that imagination in poetry is a necessary thing. By 'simple' I don't mean to vilify all complex poetry. I think Jim and Fred hit my feelings spot on--when a poem is primarily a construct of intellect and self-referential cleverness, I lose interest. Give me Jane Kenyon over Jorie Graham any time. (Graham was the only poet I walked out on at Dodge) I really think this all emerged from the tumult of being at Dodge and being immersed in poetry and its craft for 4 days. I'm in a strongly self-critical mode right now. That's not a bad thing, as M has pointed out. (Thanks, M!) Likely the indicator of growth and change for my writing. I do appreciate all the comments here and I absolutely do not intend a range war here--just the musings of a poet in transition. Much love, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| "A-Bear"
Senior Member Username: dane Post Number: 1892 Registered: 11-1998 |
Lisa -In poetry, as in life, there are no simple answers. Just last night, I was asked the question, “When does lust become love?” As much as I like simplicity (in everything), I found myself stumped and blind sighted. For several moments, I was like a deer caught in the headlight of an illegal hunter. Today, it was all I could think about and I find myself wanting to write a poem about it. As simple as it should be and yet unique at the same time. My usual style, I know, but the most difficult subject I have had to deal with in years -I only wish it was simple -this never again promise I'm ready to break. D | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1544 Registered: 12-2001 |
LOL No range war little Lisa, I just get uptight with the words contrived and clever because sometimes those labels are used merely because another poet doesn't understand the imagery or the title is inventive. Maybe it's just labels that I'm opposed to. I would hate for poetry to become a one way street, in everything I like wide spaces and open endings. I worry about inner circles and groups or even one person spouting. Changing style and growing is a "whole nother' thing" as my Dad would say! LOL Bren PenShells | ||
| Morgan Lafay
Senior Member Username: morganlafay Post Number: 2566 Registered: 08-2005 |
Ummmm, yeah, what everybody has said, especially Jim Doss. | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1546 Registered: 12-2001 |
I might clarify that I wasn't talking about anyone spouting here Morgan I was talking about the group that Fred refers to in his post above. Everyone has their own ideas about what makes poetry and I think it's fine to choose what works for you. To me "it's all good" by that I don't mean all poetry is good but all choices. Bren PenShells | ||
| Morgan Lafay
Senior Member Username: morganlafay Post Number: 2576 Registered: 08-2005 |
Bren, I didn't think you were. And I agree with you about poetry. Basically, to each their own, and hopefully it will be enjoyed by many a reader. | ||
| penny august
Advanced Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 1094 Registered: 06-2006 |
Bren - I agree that all choices are good. And we should celebrate our individuality. I love your writing, Bren, because it is so colorful and playful and inventive. I would love to be able to write like that, but I know I never could. It seems to me that all of the poets at Wild, while we have varying degrees of sophistication (mine being probably the least sophisticated), are writing to communicate, not to dominate or exclude. Unfortunately, many journals choose that type of writing. But we don't have to choose to read them. I personally enjoy reading everyone here precisely because we're all different. Just my h.o. penny Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1547 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thank you Penny! You know I got up this morning and read back through the thread and I thought to myself how did I get in here? LOL Then I remembered my first post was to Lisa and I knew I should have stopped reading right there. I enjoy everyone here as well, always have and probably always will. The place feels like home and I'm glad you're here! Yes, to each his/her own, I can live with that. Bren PenShells | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 3878 Registered: 08-2003 |
Dear Lisa, I know the feeling of self-criticism after immersion within the contemporary poetry scene. Spending time on poets that I enjoy, regardless of where they fall on the time track can be the best inspiration for my own voice regardless of whether I write poetry of personal experience or from the terra incognita of my own imagination. Isn't this why some of us began writing in the first place? E Word Walker Press | ||
| Dale McLain
Senior Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 3325 Registered: 11-2004 |
Lisa~ Very interesting discussion. Is 'simple' the kiss of death for a poem? Well, if so, I'd best shutup.  take care~dale | ||
| Fred Longworth
Intermediate Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 507 Registered: 05-2006 |
It has come to my attention that my comments, above, may be understood as trivializing, dismissive, flippant -- or even, in a sense, an effort to hijack the thread. Though such was not my intent, sometimes I post in haste, without sufficient regard to how my words may be "taken." Lisa posed a serious question, and upon reflection I believe my responses disrespected the spirit of her initial post. I therefore extend my apology. Fred Longworth | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5684 Registered: 07-2002 |
Fred--no worries. I loved the poem 'lifted' from the bathroom wall. It captured my frequent frustration with elitist poetry. And besides, I'm often too serious for my own good. A little levity can shake things up. Best, ljc PS--I'm not shy at letting folks know if I think they've crossed a line. If I'd been offended in any way, I would have let you know. Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5685 Registered: 07-2002 |
Emusing and Dale--thank you for adding your thoughts to this thread. Now that I'm a few weeks from Dodge and have, to some extent, internalized my experiences there, I'm back to writing and feeling less hyper-critical of my work. I think this is definitely a phase in my development as a writer. Likely a phase many, if not most, of us go through. A little self- doubt is probably good for the soul--keeps me from getting complacent. xo, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Penelope
Intermediate Member Username: penelope Post Number: 507 Registered: 07-2005 |
Dear Lisa, thought you would appreciate this poem by Gerald Locklin: The Iceberg Theory all the food critics hate iceberg lettuce. you'd think romaine was descended from orpheus's laurel wreath, you'd think raw spinach had all the nutritional benefits attributed to it by popeye, not to mention aesthetic subtleties worthy of verlaine and debussy. they'll even salivate over chopped red cabbage just to disparage poor old mr. iceberg lettuce. I guess the problem is it's just too common for them, it doesn't matter that it tastes good, has a satisfying crunchy texture, holds its freshness, and has crevices for the dressing, whereas the darker, leafier varieties are often bitter, gritty, and flat. it just isn't different enough, and too goddamn american. of course a critic has to criticize: a critic has to have something to say. perhaps that's why literary critics purport to find interesting so much contemporary poetry that just bores the shit out of me. at any rate, I really enjoy a salad with plenty of chunky iceberg lettuce, the more the merrier, drenched in an italian or roquefort dressing. and poems I enjoy are those I don't have to pretend I'm enjoying. Penelope | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5688 Registered: 07-2002 |
LOL!!!!!  OK--this just made my day. Thank you! And I'm glad i wasn't drinking anything when i read this or I might have spewed it all over my laptop. xo, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 2322 Registered: 10-2005 |
Lisa- Thanks for starting this very interesting conversation. I wish we had more of these little seminars each week to think about and discus. Also, if you are inclined to write out in a essay form the internal effect of your experiences at Dodge I would love to hear more about it. On the simplicity issue. I have been through periods where I question the value of my work, and whether I'm talking about the things that poems should be talking about. I've discovered it's really a waist of my time to think like that. I have two notes posted near my desk that have helped divert my attention. I don't know the exact moment they occurred to me, but I wrote them up quickly and they have helped me come out of a rather long dry period. They are: What is the bigger issue? and Creating the conversation. If I can answer the first question, or satisfy the second statement, I know I'm on the right track. A poets work is to be "busy doing nothing." ~Billy Collins Poetspennies eBay Window |
