| Author | Message | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8313 Registered: 11-1998 |
I just thought you all might get a kick out of this excerpt from an essay by Dave Eggers about irony -- what it is and what it isn't. Enjoy. Love, M ------------------------------------------------ On second thoughts - part two Dave Eggers Saturday January 20, 2001 Guardian Unlimited Irony and its malcontents This section should be skipped by most, for it is annoying and pedantic, and directed to a very few. They know who they are. Here we go: You can't know how much it pains me to even have that word, the one beginning with i and ending in y, in this book. It is not a word I like to see, anywhere, much less type on to my own pages. It is beyond a doubt the most overused and under-understood word we currently have. I have that i-word here only to make clear what was clear to, by my estimations, about 99.9% of original hardcover readers of this book: that there is almost no irony, whatsoever, within its covers. But to hear a few people tell it, this entire book, or most of it, was/is ironic. Well. Well. Ahem. Well. Let's define irony as the dictionary does: the use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. Now, where, keeping that definition in mind, do we find that herein? We do find some things that might have confused the reader prone to presuming this irony, so let's address them one at a time: 1. When someone kids around, it does not necessarily mean he or she is being ironic. That is, when one tells a joke, in any context, it can mean, simply, that a joke is being told. Further, satire is not inherently ironic. Nor is parody. Or any kind of comedy. Irony is a very specific and not all that interesting thing, and to use the word/concept to blanket half of all contemporary cultural production - which some aged arbiters seem to be doing (particularly with regard to work made by those under a certain age) - is akin to the too-common citing of "the Midwest" as the regional impediment to all national social progress (when we all know the "Midwest" is 10 miles outside of any city). In other words, to refer to everything odd, coincidental, eerie, absurd or strangely funny as ironic is, frankly, an abomination upon the Lord. (Re that last clause: not irony, but a simple, wholesome, American-born exaggeration.) To illustrate the many more things that are not ironic but are often referred to as such, let's look at some sample sentences, starring a wee wayward pup known as Benji, and see if we can illuminate some distinctions. Sample: Benji was run over by a bus. Isn't that ironic? No: That is not ironic. That is unfortunate, but it is not ironic. Sample: It was a bright and sunny day when Benji was run over by a bus. Ironic, no? Again, no: That is not irony. It is an instance of dissonance between weather and tragedy. Sample: It is ironic that Benji was on his way to the vet when he was run over by a bus. Still: That is not irony. That is a coincidence that might be called eerie. Sample: It is ironic that Benji was run over on the same day he misused the word ironic. But see: This is, again, a coincidence. It is wonderfully appropriate that he was run over on this day, deserving as he was of punishment, but it is not ironic. 2. Now, on a related subject: simply because humour is found in a context of pain, does not make that humour ironic. I have heard people claim that there is irony in the first chapter of this book, a chapter that is excruciatingly serious and straightforward. Are there even a few funny moments in this section? Absolutely not. But what confuses some people is the use of a device here or there, a formal trick or innovation that this sort of reader finds bothersome in the same way that a certain king of lore is said to have told a certain court composer that his music had too many notes. 3. If we dismiss the idea that all formal fun - and we must be allowed it - constitutes irony, then we must agree that: 5. Prefaces are not ironic. 6. Notations are not ironic. 7. Diagrams are not ironic. 8. Funny titles are not ironic. 9. Numbered points are not ironic. 10. Footnotes are not ironic*. 11. Small type is not ironic. 11a. Appendices are not ironic. 12. Having characters break out of character is not ironic. Wait, back to humour for a second: Generally, if a joke is told, or a humorous anecdote relayed, and by chance you do not understand that joke or humorous anecdote, it does not mean it is ironic. Or "neo-ironic". It simply means that you do not understand that joke. And that is okay. There have been a few readers who have taken the long, messy run-on of the book's end, even that passage, as ironic. Which is so disturbing. A parody of Ulysses? What is wrong with you people? But such interpretations, in the end, aren't really my problem. When I was done, I was ashamed, because I had written what I saw as a much too revealing and maudlin thing, overflowing with blood and sentiment and a simple bare longing for people who are gone. The book was seen by its author as a stupid risk, and an ugly thing, and a betrayal, and overall, as a mistake he would regret for the rest of his life but a mistake which nevertheless he could not refrain from making and, worse, as a mistake he would encourage everyone to make, because everyone should make big, huge mistakes, because a) They don't want you to; b) Because they haven't the balls themselves and your doing it reminds them of their status as havers-of-no-balls; c) Because your life is worth documenting; d) Because if you do not believe your life is worth documenting then why are you wasting your time/our time? Our air? e) Because if you do it right and go straight toward them, you, like me, will write to them and will look straight into their eyes when writing, will look straight into their fucking eyes, like a person sometimes can do with another person, and tell them something, even though you might not know them well, or at all, and even if you wrote in their books or hugged them or put your hand on their arm, you still would scarcely know them, but even so wrote a book that was really a letter to them, a messy fucking letter that you could barely keep a grip on, but a letter you meant, and a letter you sometimes wish you had not mailed, but a letter you are happy that made it from you to them. * What the fuck is ironic about this? © Dave Eggers. This is an edited extract from Mistakes We Knew We Were Making, by Dave Eggers, which appears in the revised paperback edition of A Heartbreaking Work Of Staggering Genius, to be published by Picador on February 9, priced £6.99. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9022 Registered: 07-2001 |
He gives examples of what is not ironic but not what might be, which I suppose is ironic...but then again, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8316 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Mr. B -- An example of irony: "My name is M and I definitely run things around here." As my name is not M and I definitely do NOT run things around here (we all know that you guys run this place), that statement would be considered ironic (highly ironic, in this case, and funny as hell to boot). Ironic simply means a statement that is the exact opposite of what is meant. Another example: "Yeah, my eyes are blue all right." Because everyone knows by now that my eyes are blind, not blue, they would probably see the irony in my statement. Other ironic statements: Benji is one fat cat. The world is always a peaceful place. All politicians are honest. My eye doctor is a god. Well, you get the idea. Hope this helps. Love, Not Really ~M~ | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9023 Registered: 07-2001 |
My name is M might not be. We know you as M. And whether sight impaired or not your eyes may have blue color. Benji might be flat if run over by a semi... All and always bother me. I'm not sure I would not say "Some politicians are honest." At any rate, the "exact" opposite is a tough standard. Water is dry. Rub your fingers through my curly locks. Whitman was a hack. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| Fred Longworth
Valued Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 281 Registered: 05-2006 |
Benji has a little valve on the side that says "refill." I fixed him with a bicycle pump and duct tape. * * * * * The world is a peaceful place in the brief moments following a war, when the military is recouping strength and enjoying the booty. * * * * * Your eye doctor is a lesser god working on his wings, somewhat like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life. * * * * * All politicians are . . . god, try hard as I can, I can't figure a way to dispossess this statement of its irony. Derf | ||
| "A-Bear"
Senior Member Username: dane Post Number: 1845 Registered: 11-1998 |
Irony is sardonic when used correctly - e.g, beautiful day, isn't it? (when it's raining, of course). From one that sees and seeks irony in everything, I agree with David's samplings of coincidence and the eerie. Benji getting run over by a bus is not ironic, but asking if Benji caused damage to the Greyhound that hit him comes close. D | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9028 Registered: 07-2001 |
Benji was my favorite bull, and a favorite of the cows; but he would not stay penned. Given the least provocation (usually a motorcycle), Benji would break out of his paddock and wander on the road looking for trouble. Today, he found it. Benji stood on a blind corner, uncertain of which SUV to attack, when a Greyhound Express clobbered him. Although the front of the bus was crushed and it ended up hitting a rock wall with its rear, passengers and driver would have walked away if it had on exploded on impact with the wall. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 656 Registered: 06-2006 |
Difference between irony and sarcasm? penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| "A-Bear"
Senior Member Username: dane Post Number: 1846 Registered: 11-1998 |
Penny -the ironic is often sarcastic but not always. The greatest of life's irony, to me anyway, is being given life in order to die. Then again, it's more fact than it is ironic (per Mr. Eggers and Mr. Webster). Asking an Eskimo (in mid-winter) if it's hot enough to his liking is not necessarily ironic, I suppose, but it's surely to strike a nerve of some kind. The best example of irony, IMHO, is for someone to quit smoking and drinking to prolong their life and good health, and then getting killed in a head-on collision by a drunk driver who dropped his lit cigarette. Then again, if it actually happened, some might consider it more fact rather than seeing the irony in it. Dang, what the hell is irony anyway? A Baptist Preacher was seated next to a cowboy on a flight to Texas. After the plane took off, the cowboy asked for a whiskey and soda, which was brought and placed before him. The flight attendant then asked the preacher if he would like a drink. Appalled, the preacher replied, "I'd rather be tied up and taken advantage of by women of ill-repute, than let liquor touch my lips." The cowboy then handed his drink back to the attendant and said, "Me too, I didn't know we had a choice." D | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 660 Registered: 06-2006 |
Dane - thanks for the great example and the laugh out loud which I needed tonight before I'm off to (now) sweet dreams!  penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8317 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest penny -- While both sarcasm and irony revolve around the disparity between what's said and what's meant, sarcasm is intended to mock or deride, while irony is more tame and merely humorous and sometimes, even thoughtful. So, to take apart my examples: "My name is M and I definitely run things around here." Definitely irony. No mocking or derision in sight. "Yeah, my eyes are blue all right." Hmmmmm, depends on the tone of voice, I guess. If said to someone who should know my eyes are blind (like my best friend), this would be highly sarcastic. "Benji is one fat cat." I meant this as an ironic statement, as Benji is neither fat nor a cat. In fact, I hoped to elicit some sympathy for poor run-over Benji. I certainly was not mocking or deriding him as he was an innocent victim. "The world is always a peaceful place." "All politicians are honest." OK, I'll admit, these are more sarcasm than irony (although since they are also intended to produce a laugh, they have a goodly measure of irony to them as well). "My eye doctor is a god." Most definitely sarcasm and nothing but sarcasm. I have said this in my physician's presence and absolutely intended to mock and deride the poor man. I would roll my eyeballs at him while I said this, but cannot as my eyeballs hurt too much to do that. Don't worry -- my physician is accustomed to these kinds of comments coming from me. At my very first visit, I called him Dr. Mengele. While he laughed (as all evil people do), I believe he knew sarcasm when he heard it. At my next visit, I intend to tell him that someone who has had as many standing "dates" with me as he has over the last five months, at least owes me dinner and a movie. This is neither sarcastic nor ironic, it is simply humorous as I really would like dinner and a movie, but I suspect he will buy me dinner and a movie when pigs fly. Hope this helps. (again, neither ironic nor sarcastic as I truly mean what I said). Love, M | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 662 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hmnnn - thanks, M - this does help (no irony there). I really always thought of irony as in Dane's example, or of a person being so careful of their health and then getting killed by a bus. Or moving to another city because they felt unsafe where they lived and getting shot by a mugger. Or my aunt, an artist, who also lost her eyesight. Stuff like that. So if I say Max, my dog, whom I adore, is a pain in the butt, that's ironic? As for Dr. Mengele, I think he should fly you to Paris, take you to the best restaurant in town and a show after that (with seats up front of course). I don't know the problem with your eyes, M, but if you are ever interested in any vitamin or homeopathic remedies that might be helpful (or at least couldn't hurt) I would be happy to share with you anything I know. (I studied homeopathy for two years and have been interested in alternative medicine for many more). Again, thank you M and all for this interesting discussion! (-:= penny Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8321 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest penny -- most people mistake the examples you and Dane listed as irony. This is a misnomer, however. These incidences would be considered very eerie coincidences, as Mr. Eggers notes, but not ironic. An irony is simply a statement that means something different (often the complete opposite) from what's stated and is often used for humorous effect. I think the real problem is that we do not have a good word for "eerie coincidence," and so people have put the word irony to use as a substitute. They've done it for so long now that most people don't even know the true meaning of ironic anymore, and hence, use it incorrectly. In light of this, I am proposing a new word be added to the dictionary to describe these weird situations. This new word will be eerincidence. As soon as I have finished this note, I will write to the Webster's people with my proposal. I'm sure it will be only a matter of a few short days before eerincidence sweeps the globe! (Now, that's ironic!) Thanks, dear heart, for your offer to share information on alternative remedies. I am currently seeing an alternative medicine specialist (not for my eyes, specifically, but for other health issues). She has given me no less than 30 pills/capsules to swallow every day (herbal concoctions). Unfortunately, some are so big, I've choked on them (no lie -- I really have). I will be bringing this to her attention at my next visit, as it would be an eerincidence were I to choke to death on pills intended to help me. I'm not sure I wish to add any more herbs to my regimen at this time. Trying to get healthier with the ones I have is nearly killing me. I'm sure you will understand why I would be reticent to add even more. However, if you know of something other than pills for eye issues, I'd be more than willing to listen. As for Dr. Mengele and Paris, this is but a blind woman's dream. I'll certainly make the suggestion, but I have a feeling the man will decline. He will probably tell me if he does this for me, he will have to do it for all his patients or some silly excuse like that. Love, M | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 665 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hi M - see, this is one of the reasons I love it here... I learn something new every day.  Eerincidentally, my son and I were just discussing the meaning of irony. Wait - is that synchronicidentally. oh never mind. Still you have helped a lot. I do think I get it now, she said, fingers crossed behind her back. I empathize with those choker-sized pills. Can't do that either, and certainly understand why you wouldn't want any more. When I look in my magic spell books later, I'll see if I can come up with anything helpful that needn't be swallowed. Meanwhile, surely you know that you see more clearly than most people with 20/20. But then you must be told that often; it's the truth. Thanks again~ penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9070 Registered: 07-2001 |
Coincidence might not be. The example - living a healthy life and getting hit by s truck - might not be. Drinking a halfrack a day and getting hit by a beer truck might be. And might be irony to boot. IE, there should be a relationship between the events that is more than casual/ordinary to be conincidence. Examples A surfer bit by a jellyfish. A surfer hit by a surfboard. A surfer rides a wave beyond his skill level and drowns. A surfer is hit by a Hang 10 beer truck. I or C or? Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 667 Registered: 06-2006 |
just some damned bad luck? penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| Fred Longworth
Valued Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 285 Registered: 05-2006 |
eerincidence is very similar to two other popular words: jeerincidence -- as in what happens when I read my edgier poems in open mics. cheerincidence -- as in what my one lone supporter in the same audience does. * * * * * And of course irony refers to a popular prosthesis from the early 20th century. * * * * * Here is a story about pills. When my mother was in her final years -- and insistent on living alone, except for a lady who came by and did "light housekeeping" -- she had to take about twenty pills a day. I would come over on Saturday and count out groups of twenty and put them in seven jars, one for each day. Then I would call her daily and walk her though the task of taking the pills. Well . . . one day I called and she was excited. She had a new innovation -- an improvement in the whole pills routine. Something to make the process easier and better! Naturally I wondered what this "progress" was. "I took all the pills from all those silly little bottles and poured them together in a bigger jar. Now, all I have to do each day is reach into the jar, grab a handful and swallow them." Yikes. Needless to say, that was when I realized she had to have someone come in every day, something more than "light housekeeping." Fred | ||
| penny august
Intermediate Member Username: funnyoldlady Post Number: 668 Registered: 06-2006 |
fearincidence - when my husband and all the neighbors are all out of town and I'm home alone at night. irony - how one feels after those flapjacks cooked in grandma's old frying pan. (cast iron). Mom had a good sense of humour, Fred. She probably knew exactly what she was saying and doing, but wanted some more company. She got it! Whoa, I'll bet that was scary! penny (-:= Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. - Mark Twain. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8333 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Mr. B -- all your examples are funny, but not ironic (though I do like penny's suggestion of "just some damned bad luck" ). Take this: "A surfer is hit by a Hang 10 beer truck" -- the statement is simply an expression of the truth. No different or opposite meaning is implied. Hence, this is an eerincidence (gee, I'm really getting to enjoy the sound of that word), not irony. Sorry, try again. Dearest Fred -- I like your mother's logic. And I would have to admit that when viewed a week at a time, her pill consumption does balance out. It's like this diet advice I just read. The experts claim that it doesn't really matter how many calories you consume on any given day, only that the total calorie count stays at a certain pre-established level for the week. In other words, you could eat all the calories you have been allowed for the entire week on Sunday, and as long as you eat absolutely nothing from Monday through Saturday, your diet plan would still be considered a raging success. It's the same rationalization that financial analysts employ to keep you from ripping their heads off during a period of declining values in stocks. "The short-term doesn't matter," they cry -- "you need only concern yourself with long-term performance." It's also the rationalization my husband used for selling things below cost. He said he'd make it up on volume. Voila! See -- Mom might have been onto something. I will run the experiment and swallow all my 210 herbal pills today and then nothing for the rest of the week. I will be sure to come back and let you know how it worked (assuming, of course, that I do not choke to death in the process). Love, M | ||
| Andrew Dufresne
Intermediate Member Username: beachdreamer Post Number: 465 Registered: 01-2006 |
M, my favorite quote about irony is from Charles Olson: "I don't understand irony. Where's the iron in it?" ad __________________________________________________ Heed me my ghost, my heir. To-morrow, Or soon, my body to ash must fall... Heed me, ghost, and I shall not sorrow -- Learn this beauty, O learn it all. --John Drinkwater 1920 | ||
| Jana Bouma
New member Username: violamama Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2006 |
The everyday use of irony may be overly broad, but Mr. Eggers's definition is overly limited and simplistic. "A Handbook to Literature," 6th ed., defines irony thus: "[Irony is] a broad term referring to the recognition of a reality different from appearance. Verbal irony is a figure of speech in which the actual intent is expressed in words that carry the opposite meaning." Thus, irony may, in fact, refer to words that, indeed, "mean the opposite." On the other hand, it may also refer to events or other realities that are merely "different from appearance." What's more, according to the Handbook, "In contemporary criticism irony is used to describe a poet's 'recognition of inconguities' and his or her controlled acceptance of them." Thus, a work need contain neither humor nor "speaking in opposites" to contain irony. The Handbook lists Thomas Hardy's and Henry James's novels as "elaborate artistic expressions of the ironic spirit, for irony applies not only to statement but also to event, situation, and structure." So let me take a stab at this. In Hardy's "Jude the Obscure" (warning: spoilers) Jude is a sensitive, artistic man trapped by his class, his own carnal drive, and simple, untimely circumstance, in a loveless marriage and a stultifying trade. He breaks free from his marriage to live in sin with the woman of his dreams (who, likewise, has left her husband). They are a loving, productive couple, doing good work and responsibly raising their children. In the end, however, Victorian society's judgmental prudery drives the loving couple into a nightmare of poverty and horror. Ultimately, their children die of murder/suicide, the couple is driven apart, and each returns to his or her spouse. Jude dies of consumption, neglected and alone while his tart of a wife parties until dawn. Jude's 'beloved,' meanwhile, does a lifetime of twisted, bitter penance, living with a husband who is made miserable in knowing that his wife loathes him. There are many instances of irony in this novel. I would venture (just off the top of my head, here) that one source of irony is this: Societal conventions, such is the absolute sanctity of marriage, are designed to maintain order and virtue. In this case, however, these very conventions destroy a loving, productive relationship (between Jude and his beloved), result in a multiple murder/suicide (of Jude's children), and force Jude and his beloved to return to relationships that are debauched and emotionally destructive. Never, in this novel, does Hardy precisely "say one thing while meaning the opposite." But his plot powerfully dramatizes a societal "incongruence": That society, in trying to maintain order and virtue, in fact (at times) brings about destruction and degradation. Thus, irony is a much subtler and widely applicable concept than Eggers acknowledges. It's such a straightforward and transparent idea. I can't imagine why folks have such a hard time getting their heads around it. (Oops--that was facetious.) (Message edited by violamama on August 31, 2006) Jana | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 9077 Registered: 07-2001 |
Now I understand! Grins Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 8338 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Jana -- thanks for joining in the discussion and adding your thoughts. Odd, but even with all the books I've read, somehow I managed not to read Jude the Obscure. Can't really say why, but I suppose that is beside the point. I just wanted you to know I am by no means an expert on this book, especially considering I have not read it. I very much enjoyed reading your summary of the plotline and analysis of the novel. I believe even Mr. Eggers might agree that the disparity/inconguence between societal conventions and the final outcome of the characters in the novel could be considered ironic. In addition, I found this review of the book quite eye-opening: "After the bitter denunciation of the sexual double standard in Tess, Hardy expanded his satiric attack in his next novel, Jude the Obscure (1895), which criticized the institutions of marriage, the Church, and England’s class system. Again Hardy was savaged by critics who could not countenance his subversiveness. He was attacked in the press as decadent, indecent, and degenerate. Among those offended was his wife, who took the novel as anti-religious, and thus a blow to the devoutness she believed she shared with her husband. Distressed by such small-mindedness, Hardy, now financially secure, vowed to give up novel-writing and return to the composition of poetry, his first literary love, which he felt would afford him greater artistic and intellectual freedom. From 1898 on Hardy published mainly poetry. He became one of the few English authors to produce a significant body of poetry as well as novels." I took this review to mean perhaps that Hardy was not attempting irony so much as satire in this book. Was he being ironic or satirical? It's running on a fine line, isn't it? Again, I am no expert on this novel or irony or satire. Just pondering it all and wishing I was expert enough to know. Love, M | ||
| Jana Bouma
New member Username: violamama Post Number: 36 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Jude" is much too dire and serious a novel to be considered satire. Hardy isn't making fun of anything. He's painting a tragedy, through and through. "Irony" and "satire" aren't mutually exclusive terms. A work may be one or the other--or it may be both. However, the tone or attitude of the speaker provides a key. The Handbook, again: "Satirists attempt through laughter not so much to tear down as to inspire a remodeling. If attackers simply abuse, they are writing invective; if they are personal and splenetic, they are writing sarcasm; if they are sad and morose over the state of society [cf Mr. Hardy], they are writing irony or a jeremiad." (Message edited by violamama on August 31, 2006) Jana |
