| Author | Message | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5112 Registered: 07-2002 |
I've been debating publishing a collection of poetry through one of the print-on-demand services such as Lulu. I know some of Wild's members have done this (our anthology is thru Lulu, and I also have books by Gary B, Jim Doss and Vienna Barley, all thru Lulu) and i don't have any qualms about the quality of the finished product. Are there any down sides to going the self pub route in poetry? I know that in more commercial work (eg, a novel), self publication is quite controvercial and derided as 'vanity press'. But it seems as if POD is a natural fit for a niche market like poetry. I'm trying to figure out why I want to do this. Vanity? Maybe. I would like to see a book of poems with my name on them. Am I too lazy to keep submitting work to journals, etc? I've sent book length collections to about 8 different contests with small publishers and nada. I know how fierce the competition is for such a small potential market, and I want to focus my time and energy submitting my novel(s) for potential publication. I don't expect to be able to quit my day job with the royalties. LOL. I'd appreciate any thoughts you all might have. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Advanced Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 1226 Registered: 08-2004 |
That's a good question, Lisa.. not that all of your discussions aren't thought provoking. LOL Personally, I had a bad experience with a self publisher years ago, and frankly, the outcome was so awful that I quit writing for a while. I won't go into the background, so please, don't ask. But lately, I have thought about putting a collection together for some of those contests, or even looking into a self publisher again... but thinking about it is about as far as I get before confusion rocks the whole idea out of my head. How to put a collection together, from the contents, to the "paginated" to the actual relationship between each poem just baffles me. Even creating a title beats me down. And once I do get all of that together how do I know that the book won’t turn out like my other experience? See? I just knocked the whole idea out of my head again. I wish I had been around for the Wild Anthology, it was obviously a good experience and would have given me a better idea as to how these things can work. I look forward to watching this thread. (((smile))) Karen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7946 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Lisa -- I'm not out to discourage anyone. But self-publishing has its drawbacks. 1. Financial -- it's totally up to you to fund the project. No backing, no cash support. Unless you pick a print-on-demand like Lulu, your upfront costs could be considerable. Most self-publishing houses require you to fund/purchase several thousand dollars worth of books upfront. You buy 'em, you stock 'em in your garage. 2. Production -- again, totally in your court. You have to be savvy enough to typeset the whole thing, produce artwork for your own covers, etc., unless you can pay for, barter for, or beg for someone's assistance. Or you have to be satisfied with producing what may be considered an ugly book if your talents in the artistic area are lacking. 3. Marketing -- ah, that's the big one. Have you got friends in the book marketing biz? If not, you have no one but yourself to depend on to market the product. Producing a book is one thing -- SELLING a book is a whole 'nother ballgame. Unless you enjoy traveling around like a snake oil salesman hawking your book hither and yon, it's just going to sit there on your shelves. Sure, you may be able to talk some family and/or friends into purchasing it, but then what? Bookstores are a tough sell. Most already have too many self-published books in their inventory and don't even want to discuss taking on yours. Hell, they don't even want to take on known names in poetry, much less an untried author. And then there are the costs involved with loading books in your trunk and traveling. Consider gas prices. Traveling ain't cheap these days. Use mailers instead to advertise to bookstores? Don't bother -- they end up in the trash. You have little enough chance if you storm the door personally; none at all through the mail. Listing it on Amazon? That would necessitate differentiating it in some way from the zillion other books that are on Amazon. You'll get lost in the crowd. Putting up a web site to sell it? Again, how do you encourage people to go there to see it, much less buy it? And what if they do buy it? How about shipping costs? If you price it high enough to cover production costs AND shipping costs, that price is usually more than people want to pay for a volume of poetry. Selling it at local poetry readings? Not many people actually buy the books that poets who do readings are trying to sell. Most audiences come to the reading and go home empty-handed. Trying to get e-zines to do reviews (so that people will hear about the book and then want to buy it)? I've been writing to mags ever since we produced the Wild Anthology a year ago. So far, one mag bit and did a review. Not a great hit ratio, so I wouldn't count on this as a lucrative advertising option. ------------------ Live on the royalties? I know you were kidding, but honey, you'll be lucky if you cover your production costs. Lulu is one of the least expensive ways to go, but don't kid yourself. Lulu does absolutely NOTHING to market your book. That's still totally up to you. Review #3 up there. It all still applies even if you decide to use Lulu. Selling books is tough. And the thing that really pisses me off about Lulu is that they don't share customer data. They consider YOUR customers (people who are purchasing YOUR book) to be THEIR private, little secret. I can't get squat out of Lulu about who's actually purchasing the Anthology. I have NO ACCESS WHATSOEVER to our customers, either to thank them or to try to sell more to them. This fries my ass worse than anything. As I said, I'm not trying to discourage you or anyone. But you should go into the deal with eyes wide open. Producing a book is a lot different from selling a book and most people don't think about how hard it is to sell things. Do you have a background in sales/marketing? If not, that's another area you're going to have to bone up on. And this isn't a handy-dandy product people can't live without. It's a book. Most people don't read anymore. Books are the hardest sell there is. If you still want to do it even after all this, OK. But do realize it's a vanity thing when all's said and done. Most authors are lucky to sell a hundred copies by themselves. That's why book publishers exist and why they are so damn picky about what they publish. It costs big money to produce and market books. That's why they pick only a few select titles and that's after the marketing research has shown that the title has the chance of selling enough to cover production/marketing costs and returning some kind of profit. If it were so easy, everybody'd be doing it. Much Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5113 Registered: 07-2002 |
Yup. There's little to no money in poetry.  That's why I keep my day job. Physical therapy supports my writing habit. So I'm being honest with myself--it's vanity. I write because I can't imagine not writing and keeping at least these last vestiges of sanity I still have. (Hey, quit laughing, M!) But there's that part of me that wants to know the words are being read. Yes, I have a blog and a website, and I post publicly at Wild, but there's nothing like cozying up with a slim volume of poetry and flipping through the pages. I love the tangible reality of our anthology. ****(Go buy it if you don't have it--shameless plug--it's really, really good!)**** When I hold Jim Doss' book, or Gary's or Vienna's, I feel a concrete connection to these wonderful poets. And I have them on my poetry shelf next to Donald Hall and Sharon Olds and Billy Collins. So I'm still thinking. I have no desire to be a marketer or a bookseller, just a poet and a writer looking to share. After several years of paying reading fees for poetry chapbook contests, I'm at the point where it's not worth my time and effort. I need to reserve that energy for the novel-quest. ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 3745 Registered: 08-2003 |
Just to add in my own .000002 cents, one of the positive aspects of self-publishing is that you can sell your books at readings. At Moonday last month, one of our readers sold 39 books!! It was a packed house and she promoted to her friends. People DO buy book at poetry readings so if you're inclined to read live, having your own book is definitely a plus. xo E | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7953 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Lisa -- I see that I sounded a little bit harsh (a little bit? *LOL*) in my opinions about self-publishing. I just want to state for the record, that I AM NOT against it. I just want to make sure that people go into it for the right reasons. The reasons that you have are great examples of those right reasons. And in addition to the reasons you stated, leaving a legacy for your children is another excellent reason. I'm sure your kids would love to have a book of mom's poems to put on their bookshelves, particularly after they reach adulthood. As long as you're OK with the fact that the book will probably not sell thousands of copies nor land on the best-seller list (not saying that it couldn't, only saying that this is probably not likely), you will enter into the project with the right spirit. Then instead of being disappointed that the sales are low or flagging, you will appreciate every single sale you get and you will get an emotional warm and fuzzy feeling about each book that goes out the door. Much as I have reservations about Lulu, I would recommend them to people like you. They're (mostly) efficient and professional even considering their major problems. Since high volume sales are not your goal, there's no sense putting up an initial stake in hundreds of copies. Print-on-demand is easy -- they print 'em as they're ordered and they handle shipping 'em. That makes the whole process much easier and much less of a headache for you. I'll even promise you I'll buy one. There -- you just made your first sale! *grin* And thanks for the Anthology plug. You know -- not even every author IN the Anthology actually purchased a copy. That's a crime, folks. If you won't even invest in yourselves, why would you expect other people to? *quizzical look* Do you think I made them feel guilty enough yet? *chuckle* Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 5116 Registered: 07-2002 |
No worries, M. It's important to get that caveat emptor (probably spelled that wrong--older son is the Latin scholar--have to ask him!) message out there. So many folks get taken in, scammed, or just terribly disappointed in the self-publishing world. So listen up to Auntie M! Good advice. The other reason I'm thinking of putting out a book is I want to do some poetry workshop teaching. I may be putting together a children's and an adult class through our local school district. I can plug my book in the course listing. xo, ljc If you don't believe me about the WPF anthology, read this review! http://halfdrunkmuse.com/current/reviews/poets_gone_wild.php Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Advanced Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 1236 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well, after M's post, I went and bought a bunch of folders with the claspy thingees and printed off all of my poems, punched holes and made my own "books". I have my grandbaby outside in a mock Kool-ade stand selling them-- not bad sales, really! lol at least the poems are all-together and not missing their last stanzas. grrr (((smile))) Karen | ||
| Deborah P Kolodji
Intermediate Member Username: dkolodji Post Number: 465 Registered: 04-2005 |
Lisa, I struggled with this myself and once put together a small pamplet at Kinko's that I used at a poetry reading at a vampire festival that a friend conned me into attending. I sold 2 of them. The problem is that I never took any pride in the self-published Kinko's booklet because it "felt weird to me." I was looking at Lulu's but then I suddenly had luck with chapbooks and in the past year Saki Press published "Seaside Moon," Shadow Poetry published "unfinished book," Sam's Dot Publishing published "Symphony of the Universe," and Gromagon Press published "Red Planet Dust." I'm not sure why this happened all at once after years of no luck, but it did. I didn't have to pay any of the costs of producing these chapbooks so it makes me feel they're more legitimate and I'm proud of them. I have plenty of copies to sell at readings, I get teenie royalty checks, so life is good. If you can get past a mental thing about self-publishing, it's the quickest way to go, but if you are anything like me and want to somehow feel validated, then don't give up on the chapbook route - you're a good poet, there's a chapbook publisher that would love to publish you. Deborah P Kolodji www.livejournal.com/~dkolodji www.kolodji.com Editor, Amaze: The Cinquain Journal Amaze: The Cinquain Journal | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 8637 Registered: 07-2001 |
I have gone the Kinko route (twice) and Lulu. I prefer the latter for quality and professional look. Still, the 1000 pound gorilla is marketing. How to get them out there, noticed, etc. Done right, it is either time-consuming or expensive. The alternative - finding a publisher, which is as difficult if not more so than marketing. Regardless, print lots for friends and family and save some for prizes. Lisa, a volume if you teaching, some publication is a great idea. Profs do it in college. BTW, some contests, esp universities are rigged against someone not in the group. And many have pre-screeners so you are never seen by the real judge. Thanks for the great discussion. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House July FireWeed more War/Peace |
