| Author | Message | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 429 Registered: 08-2005 |
I was trying to respond to it and it disappeared. as I was saying before I was so rudly interrupted. "great work. I haven't laughed out loud at a poem in a long time. this one did it." allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7710 Registered: 11-1998 |
Sorry, Allen. I moved it. You'll find the explanation here: No, It Didn't Disappear, Alan We are a PG-13 site. I'm pretty loose on the rules, but ads for condom stores go over the edge. You'll find the poem in the Erotica Forum. If you or anyone else has any questions about our policies, just drop us a line. Basically, anything that's gonna subject me to lawsuits is gonna get moved into Erotica (or removed entirely if it breaks the rules in there which are even looser than they are in here). This doesn't reflect my private opinions; it's just smart bidness (CYA). Love, M (Administrator) | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 430 Registered: 08-2005 |
extremely distressing. it appears there's a choice between writing for 13 year-olds or writing erotica. what about truth or beauty or real life and real people, none of which pay much mind to either of those catagories. allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7712 Registered: 11-1998 |
You bring up valid points, Allen. No, I don't like segmenting poems like Alan's (really adult comedy, not erotica) into dark cubbyholes with a private sign on the door. If it was up to me personally (yes, I own the site, but Wild doesn't belong to me -- it belongs to ALL its members), I would put the erotica out here and the poems about war under lock and key. But I can't run a public site according to my own personal belief system. I have to hit a balance that keeps the majority happy. This is a democracy, correct (whatever the hell that is)? I'd make another forum specifically for those poems you reference, but I have a hard enough time getting people to use all the forums that are already available at Wild. Everybody wants to congregate in here (CREATIVE VISUALIZATION is way overpopulated). I practically have to beg them to investigate the rest of the place. *sigh* One more forum is just another forum too many. So, we're stuck putting things that might offend under the one forum that's locked. It ain't a great solution, but it's the only one I have at the moment. And it's not like you have to have a special map to find the other forums here at Wild. They're all listed right out there on the main forums page. Those that want to (or need to) will find it. Love, M | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 431 Registered: 08-2005 |
I guess I just can't imagine anyone here, or any creative person anywhere , for that matter, objecting to free expression or demanding that adult (as in grown up) artistic expression be locked away in a cabinet somewhere. but then I'm a free speech absolutist and believe that if you can't speak feely on the internet then there truly is no free place left on the earth. allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7713 Registered: 11-1998 |
We do have a pretty wide latitude about what's acceptable out here in public viewing land. We're not against references to adult topics or even the outright exploration of adult themes that are not over-the-top explicit. But Alan's poem went farther than that. It included links that would take you outside of Wild and into Candycondomland. That's OK for our members who are poking around in Erotica 'cause they're over the age of 18 and have consented to be there in an adult wonderland. But for someone (<18) just wandering around out here to stumble on that particular link is controversial. I (meaning me personally) have no objections whatsoever to kids being exposed to any kind of information, even hot topics like sex and abuse. If I had kids, I'd let them read anything like my parents did with me. In my own home, the sex books are right out there on the bookshelf with all the thousands of other books I have on every topic imaginable. And I have a 7-year-old (steve's daughter) who visits here regularly. We have no concerns about her exposure to this material. I was probably the only 10-year-old walking around with a copy of All you ever wanted to know about sex . . . but were afraid to ask. My own mother has said that I'm so broadminded, I'm flatheaded (which is probably her fault as she let me read all those books in the first place). *LOL* But some parents have objections to this. And I respect their viewpoints and their own personal rules about raising children. In short, I'm sorry. I don't like it either. Love, M | ||
| Ava South
Valued Member Username: avasouth Post Number: 198 Registered: 05-2006 |
I didn't read the piece that has been moved. Having said that, I would like to voice a viewpoint here, please. I am so over the age of 18 as to almost have forgotten it, but I can say right now that anything crude, off center, graphic, or anything voiced in four letter words puts me off at first glance. It's just not my thing. Maybe it's my age. I was raised when I was not allowed to say butt, much less ass, so maybe I am still carrying that around with me. If it's in another slot for others to participate in, that's fine. I just don't go there. And I don't think bad of others who like that sort of thing. It has it's place, but not with me. I would hate to leave WP because too much of it offended me. I am probably coming off as a prude, but really I'm not. Just an ol broad who prefers to keep this site so that everyone likes it. This is a great bunch of people. The moderators do their best to keep us sorted out, all the comments and crits, and all, so let's just try to keep it as a learning place. Now, I can put away my soapbox and start ducking the overripe fruit you might want to throw. ~smile~ Ava | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7714 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thank you, Ava, for voicing your thoughts. As I said to Allen, while I do not share conservative opinions, I do respect those who have them. If you are coming off like a prude, then I am probably coming off as a prostitute, so let them call us what they will. *smile* See, Allen -- there are members who feel differently than we do. I don't want them to feel that Wild is too Wild for them. The most interesting parties include many different kinds of people. You just don't have people shooting heroin in the living room, that's all. You put them in one of the bedrooms so that the TV evangelists don't start screaming and run out the door. This site will probably always have a decidedly liberal bent, but that's mainly because after having read literally thousands of posts and comments, I have come to the conclusion that liberal is what most of our members are. But we can maintain an even playing field by keeping the most controversial stuff behind a private door. As Ava said, members who share her opinions will just not go there, but it is still available to those who wish to view it. It would seem as if she agrees with this equitable solution. We're not totally expunging controversial material from the site, Allen. We're just putting it there instead of here. It's just filed in a different folder, that's all. I'm obsessive-compulsive. I like things neat and organized. *grin* Love, M | ||
| Sis
Moderator Username: djclowes Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-1998 |
ok , I have to stick my paw print in here and believe you me, I don't do it often. I can't. Its why Aunti M now owns and runs this site. But I have to defend her on this. I just can't have her hanging out in the breeze by herself. She might show us her bloomers or something and I am not refering to the ones she and I wear on our heads. *lol* I made wild. It was a personal webspace that exploded into the farthest reaches of the galaxy and Im proud of it. To explain further this means that anyone , anywhere at any age or level of understanding can read this website. Membership is only required to post and that was not always the way of it either. We had too many people running through here spraying graffiti on the walls etc. so we locked the door. That said, I too believe in free speech. But I know first hand that freedom isn't free. And free rights must be tempered with responsibility. For example: If my grandkids are in my house and you come over to dinner and start telling raunchy jokes and bawdy stories in front of them, im going to throw you out. Period. It shows a lack of respect on the part of the guest. But if you would like to impart some humor while the kids are in bed and its not of an extreme distasteful nature to me personaly then go ahead. Make me laugh. Im not a prude by any stretch of the imagination. This does not mean I want to hide these kids from the world. But kids learn things differently than adults. We have life experience to pull from. They don't. I want my kids to learn the honest truth of things without it being colored by someone elses perceptions. I want them to learn things at their very own level of understanding and I don't want someone else to push on them more then they are ready to comprehend or handle. Wild will never be guilty of this intentionally. And even though I no longer pull the strings I am comfortably aware that M follows the groundwork that was originally set when this site was created. This is our house. In our house we have certain guildlines just as you do in any house. It is the only way so many differnt cultures, ages and levels of experience in all things can co-exist with a degree compatablility. A lack of respect for the people you are visiting makes you an unwelcome guest. And as Ana so wonderfully pointed out above, there are adults who would rather do without some of the extreme works that can come out of the minds of our very talented membership. I am one of them. But guess what. I DON't read our erotica forum here. I dont do it for personal reasons. When running a creative writing website of this nature we have to take many things into consideration. What kind of site do we want? Do we want one that only cators to extreme expression(complete and totally uncensored speech?) or do we want one that has more of a middle ground where all kinds of folks can visit, share and learn. I assure you the extemely open kind don't last long and the membership is either very small or not one we want to spend all our time and money on. This is not what excites us. That kind of site is not who we are as individuals or as a whole. So why force it on us? Should that be what some of your prefer then please by all means, go to that site. I will hold no grudge nor will I form an opinion of you either way. We have much to offer here at Wild thanks to the talents of so many people. There is a wealth of information , creative exchange and education right here in one place. We lose our ability to share it openly and freely with others who may find our link if the sign on the door says "un-censored". And it is one reason whywe have so much to share. Agree or not. It is what it is. Ok, Aunti M. I'm getting off my soapbox and If I have run over my self-imposed boundries please come put my collar back on. *lol* My 2 cents usually comes to about a dollar and some change. Wolf hugs Sis "Poets Gone Wild" Reviewed by Sarah Miller For I am gone to the fairy people. Make the most of that other child Who prays with you by the village steeple I am gone away to the woods and wild. --Lord Dunsany (1878-1957), "The Fairy Child" | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Advanced Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 1089 Registered: 08-2004 |
I like having choices myself. So, if I open a post I don't want to be offended in any way whatsoever. I trust this woman's judgement, and have been here for a bit to have her judgement proven. Personally, I don't care for certain pictures either, no matter how pretty you make them. So, our opinions differ. I won't force you to read certain things and will not expect you to look at pictures of my G-baby on my website. I expect the same consideration. With huge respect for all parties concerned. (((smile))) Karen | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7724 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Sister Wolf -- I knew you'd get here sooner or later. I know you just LURVE this particular topic. *grin* I don't need to put a collar on you. I already did that, remember? What the hell happened to that anyway? It could come in handy. *wink* Seriously, I'm glad to see that you spoke your mind. You are correct about my motivations. I do intend to run this site responsibly, perhaps not exactly as you did or would, but within the same general guidelines. I always have you and Jag in the back of my mind and on my shoulder whispering in my ears. Sometimes it's a bloody racket, but it helps me make decisions. BTW -- Sis and I are a prime example of different kinds of people working together to attempt to make one place that appeals to all kinds of people. Sis is a conservative; I am a liberal. We've known that all along and yet it has not gotten in the way of our deep love for one another. She respects my views and I respect hers. We try to work to a compromise position on those issues where we disagree. And we do that often! Sis never wanted the Erotica forum in the first place. I was one of the most vocal proponents who pushed her to create it. And she did, because she trusted us to run it responsibly. That is compromise for the greater good. Sis knows that left to my own devices, I'd probably open the door on Wild way too wide. But she also knows I won't because this was originally her site and I must respect her position as co-creator of this marvelous community. In summary, conservatives and liberals CAN co-exist. They can also come to love each other deeply. All you need is respect and open-minds. A good collar and leash come in handy too.  Love, M | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 432 Registered: 08-2005 |
ok, this is not my site so it is a dead issue. but as it gasps its last breaths, several points. first, splinter's poem is not an erotic poem. it is a very funny poem about consumerism and the extremes to which it can go. I mean, I could not, at my wildest, make up Condom Depot and the idea that such a place might exist, whether by this name or another, is mind-blowing in and of itself. second, any ten year old out trolling poetry forums is, for sure, advanced enough to deal with a condom ad. hell, they can that or the equivalent on tv. third, what is the standard we are supposed to meet as poets. that we be careful not to shock the most shockable and that everything we write has to be acceptable to the most narrow definition of acceptability in the community, or, even, in the world (since it is the world wide web and we have to guard against the possibility that some ayatolla in Iran might read a post and be offended). that's a lousy standard. I don't mean to offend, ana, but you control what you read. you don't have to read a poem that offends you. or do I, every time I post a poem have to try to figure out if this might offend ana or not. I mean, I'm offended every time I see George Bush's lying, thieving, murdering face. does that mean I have a right to expect that Bush's face will disappear from all media (ah, what a lovely thought). Finally, I also don't like erotic forums, and I don't like flower forums or mountain forums or cute little baby deer forums. I like poetry forums, period. I, speaking of being offended, don't like the idea of having to post on an "erotic" forum just because my poem is about real life and real people and it might shock a hypothical ten year old or the most shockable person that might ever possibly read my post. if nothing else, get rid of the erotic poem idea and have a forum for ten year olds and a forum for grown-ups. those of us who feel we are engaged in a grown-up endeavor can post on the grown-up forum and those who want to write for ten year olds can post on the other. I have to say, I'm very disappointed with this whole thing. allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4928 Registered: 07-2002 |
I'm sorry you are disappointed, Allen. The bottom line is this has always been Wild Poetry Forum's policy as outlined in our FAQ's. While I, in principle, agree with you, I also agreed long ago to abide by Wild's house rules as established before I joined this place. best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Advanced Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 1090 Registered: 08-2004 |
I read it. It was not the condom ad (link that is)that was offending. (I did not click on the link because I am not interested.) You know, a warning of some type is appropriate with any and all content. From here on out I will rethink anything I post and keep in mind that a child and or a person may be offended by even the f-word. (((smile))) Ana-- if you want (Message edited by klhmonahan on June 23, 2006) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7727 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dear Allen -- As I said, I understand your position and on some levels (not all) agree with your stance. However, we are not trying to control what people write. We are merely categorizing what flows from their pens and putting it in the right space. Even your idea of having a forum for adults and a forum for children is categorization. What difference does it make what we call the "room" you put adult poems in? We call it the Erotica forum; you'd call it the grown-up forum. In either case, it's still segmented, so I'm having trouble figuring out what you are offended by. The names of our forums? Bottom line is, you don't walk into someone's house and urinate in the kitchen sink (unless you're invited to). You use the room (in most cases, the bathroom) the home owners have designated for that specific purpose. We've just got "rooms" here for certain things, Allen. Your design isn't any different. Just what you call those rooms. Are you arguing semantics? I'm not as concerned about what the children see, Allen. I know that they're computer savvy and have probably been to porn sites aplenty while mom and dad are busy doing other things. I'm concerned about mom and dad realizing that the kids are viewing what could be considered controversial material at a PG-13 website. And coming after me, trying to shut me down. Whether you feel this way or not, a lot of people love Wild and have come to enjoy posting here. I'd hate to see that threatened just so I can have the satisfaction of remaining true to my liberal interpretation of first admendment rights and support of free speech. You talk about real life, real people -- the real world, Allen. Yes, I understand the real world and the real threat of litigation. I have to live that end of things and consider the consequences for our ENTIRE membership. Love, M | ||
| "A-Bear"
Moderator Username: dane Post Number: 1749 Registered: 11-1998 |
Allen, This isn’t a chat room but I watched Nightline’s recent expose regarding Internet predators. They are everywhere. Gives me chills thinking about it. Firemen, doctors, school teachers, etc., trolling the net for innocent, potential prey. And you’d like to see a separate forum for ten-year old writers? IMO, that would be like herding the cattle into a private slaughter house.  | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 435 Registered: 08-2005 |
I think the concern here is extreme and a real example of how even a threat of censorship, no matter how remote, immediately breeds the self-inflicted wound of self-censorship. as to the grown-up forum, I don't care what you call it as long as you don't call it the erotic forum, which is the kiss of death for participation, I just would like to know where I can post. I'm an adult and I write for adults. where do I post? allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 651 Registered: 05-2005 |
ok so M has been handling this but i feel a need to put in some thoughts. first allen, why do you prostest now? you've been here awhile, you've known we have an erotica forum for just as long, why wait till now? second, we don't want a forum where people write for 10 year olds, we want a forum where 10 year olds passing by on the sidewalk are not exposed to adult themes. every community in the land has laws about public nudity, public sex, etc. lastly, on the business side, aol is already blccking emails from our site because they have found 'pornographic' words here. They don't distuingish the fact we have an erotic forum or that its password protected. they see the words they block access. it won't be long till other providers follow suit. we have to be aware of anything that restricts traffic. lastly, there has not been any type of censorship that you intimate by raising the free speech banner, we move poetry all the time, for different reasons. we havn't changed the poem just its location. at last month's rose festival here in town, they had designated areas for people to protest or speak to the crowd about religion or anything else. they also had signs up that said the festival does not agree with any opinions voiced there. I'm sure they did this for legal reasons, why should we do anything different. s | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7728 Registered: 11-1998 |
Geez, Allen. Could you cut me some slack? The concern always seems extreme, until you're embroiled in a court case that you wish (in hindsight) that you'd prepared yourself for when you had a chance. I'm not saying these things WILL happen. I'm just saying that I'd like to forestall them if I can. Yes, even the threat of censorship is an issue. Just like even the threat of imprisonment keeps people from stealing and murdering and stuff like that. Me -- I like to err on the side of caution. I didn't make the rules, Allen. I'm just trying to keep my head above water and live with them. Since you've been posting here for 435 posts without much of a problem, I'd say you are pretty familiar with where you can post at Wild. If we have an issue with you, Allen, you can be sure we'll let you know. And after this much discussion, I think you are savvy enough to determine if a particular poem requires that dreaded sequestering in the (ohmygod) Erotica forum. If it has the kiss of death stamped on the door, it might be because people don't go in there enough to help keep it active. Why not stick a toe over the threshold, Allen. You might just like it in there. Invite all your friends. Have a party. I'm sure Dane would love to have something to do in there after months of stagnation. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7729 Registered: 11-1998 |
P.S. Where the hell is Alan Addotto? The man who started this whole damn mess in the first place. Hey SplinterGroup -- stop posting stuff you KNOW belongs in the private forum out in public. How many times do we have to tell you this? I don't need you checkin' to see if I can withstand the stress of sitting here debating free speech all day. I'm tired and my head hurts. I try to help make this a fun and educational place to post, and this is what you give me for my trouble. Have you no pity, have you no heart? *LOL* Cut me a break, OK? I do wish to have some kind of life outside these walls. Thank you. | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 436 Registered: 08-2005 |
sorry, M, don't mean to offend or harass. but it's an issue worth discussing. I understand the bureaucratic concerns of running something like this (I was a bureaucrat for 30 years) and I understand they CYA requirements, but I think your concerns are way overblown. I've been sued lots of times (and always won) and do not see any conceivable way that this site would be sued by some over eager parents. even the most over-eager could find a lot more suitable lawsuit bait with three minutes surfing on the web. even beyond that, the courts have made it clear over and over again that parents are responsible for what their kids see on the internet, certainly not poetry websites. if that weren't the case most of what's available on the web today would disappear tomorrow. but, that's just a difference of conjecture. as to my posts, I do see a potential problem. after all, I didn't see anything all that terrible about splinter's poem. it was the kind of humor that passes between adults. not a big deal, really. I mean it was crass and not at all in good taste but, hell, I'm a south texas redneck, I'm almost never in good taste. so, really what do I do. what's my "fuck" quota. I use that word in my poems sometimes if it seems to me to be the word the poem needs. and other such words as well. here's a poem (it's in my book) lying in the sun with susan quiet bay no sound but the light rustle of marsh grass in the guly breeze she lies on the deck, legs spead, as if to thrust herself at the summer sun sweat glisens on the inside of her thigh and my tongue aches for the taste of her or this one (in the book) Piggly Wiggly promenade walking across the parking lot in high heels and black capri pants that draw attention to hips going a little broad and ass on the way to droop and a white cotton blouse tucked tight into her pants, small breasts, nipples round and hard as marbles, nodding with every step she struts as she passes me and smiles and you know she's having the time of her life giving all the litt bagboys mid-afternoon hard-ons, free in this parking lot for at least a while, free at least until the grocieries aresafely loaded into her Volvo and she's on her way to pick up little Brittany at ballet and finally this one (yeah, book) what God don't like I was seeing this preacher fella on tv the other day and he was saying God don't like men fucking men I don't know how in the world he would know that, except maybe he was talking to God and just straight out asked him, like, hey, God what do you think about this men fucking me thing I'd be afraid to ask, but maybe it ok for preachers, especially this particular preacherr fella since it seems like he's pretty close to God and like he must talk to him about all sorts of things because he's all the time on tv talking about what God likes and don't like (mostly about what he don't like from what I've seen), and not just about fucking, but about all sorts of things God don't like, you know, treehuggers and feminazies and Deomcrats and evolutionists and poor people land those wussy-pussy perverts who think we ought not be killing raghead foreigners without some kind of pretty good reason but, mostly what I get from listening to the tv fella is that mainly what God most often don't like are people who aren't exactly like that same tv fella so I'm thinking maybe I ought to study that fella real good and try real hard to be as much like he is as I can then maybe God won't don't like me, too anyway, enough. the thing is, if I was writing these poems today instead of a couple of years ago, where would I post them. I won't post them on an erotica site; it's a waste of time. does that mean I wouldn't be able to post them on Wild at all? Sorry again if this comes across as harassment, but I think it's a real question. I've been site shopping for several months now and Wild is the best one I've found so the answer is important to me. allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| "A-Bear"
Moderator Username: dane Post Number: 1751 Registered: 11-1998 |
As long as the word used is apropos to the poem, and no other word is more suitable to its outcome, I personally don't have a problem with it. If it's used for shock value alone and adds nothing relevant, well, it serves only to disrespect the language one claims to love. My opinion only, of course, and it may or may not be the same as those in charge, and responsible for Wild's upkeep. Allen -As you probably know, the Time Warner Auditorium in DC has a quota of 80. Not sure what the limit is in Wild's general forum, but I assure you, in Therapeutic Touch, there is no quota. Say whatever you like in Erotica without fear or care. Leave the animals and kids at home, however. D | ||
| "A-Bear"
Moderator Username: dane Post Number: 1752 Registered: 11-1998 |
P.S. and BTW, as for the poem and writing you selected for our perusal above, shame on you. You choose to kick sand in our faces rather than be cooperative and understanding of the FAQ (Wild’s rules, regulations and guidelines). Not meaning to sound righteous or moralistic here, but really, I’m a master at harassment and I do know it when I read it. Shame, shame on you. You're really a cantankerous old fart. Like I said before, it takes one to know one. Now that we've had our "15" minutes, will you please give it a rest? I'll let someone else decide on what to do with your last post (delete or move it). I really don't care one way or the other, and obviously, you don't either or you wouldn't have replied with such attitude and rubbish. So is life. D | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4929 Registered: 07-2002 |
Allen, As to the poems you presented in this thread, I wouldn't tow any of these to the 'adult' forum. However, the moderators don't always agree. I don't think any of these are 'explicit' enough or use sexuality in an overt way in order to tittilate the reader. Those are my two criteria for whether or not poems are appropriate for our general audience. But because we all have different thresholds, if these poems were on the board, I would ask the other moderators to take a look and we would have a discussion about them. Honestly, Allen, this issue comes up about once or twice a year. And there is not perfect solution or answer. We're all volunteers here, spending our time and money to keep wild vibrant. We're doing the best we can to balance everyone's needs. We promote ourselves as a PG-13 site. If you're from the states, that means material appropriate for the average 13 year old. I realize that *that* has changed over the years and that 13 year olds have become far more sophisticated than when I was 13. But some limitations remain. As with everything else, Allen, it's a compromise. The question you need to answer for yourself is if you are willing to abide by the limitations of a PG-13 site for the benefit of the kind of critique and comments you can get here. I hope you choose to stay and participate here. If you have a question as to the appropriateness of any poem, you can certainly email it to the moderators first (moderators@wildpoetryforum.com). best regards, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Allen Itz
Intermediate Member Username: allenitz Post Number: 437 Registered: 08-2005 |
thanks to all for comments. the decision as to what to allow where is a business decision. making business decisions is the right and function of the business operators, so I can't argue with that. I can be disappointed though in that no one else seems to see the importance of the question. after all, if creative people are not going to value and speak up for creative freedom, who will. the answer is no one, leaving us all to write under the all-seeing eye of an omniscent someone who knows best what's good for us all. I am not talking about this website or anyone one it, but about the world where freedom is always feeble and under threat, a threat that starts when poets and novelists and film makers and artists of all stripes begin to hedge their bets, censoring what they do as they do it in order to be safely within the bounds of whatever acceptability is currently being enforced. all real art is revoluntionary because it helps people see reality. the first requirement of tyranny, whether a dictatorshop of one or a dictatorship of the majority, is to control what people see and the first way to do that is to control art. that's why it is important to never give in, because freedom is always lost incrementally and every increment of control given up makes of the next incremental loss more likely. as for myself, all my poems are created equal. they are not segregated by some for the open market and some to be put away in an adults only ghetto. too bad. allen poetry, art, music - all available with the click of a mouse at www.7beats.com | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7730 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks for the apology, Allen. I'm sorry back at ya'. I was getting mighty tired last night and was a bit cranky. BTW -- No, I don't apologize to Addotto for my cranky comments to him. That man loves gettin' on my last nerve, so he deserves to have me served up cold and cranky. *LOL* We've been through this with him a hundred times before. You are correct, Allen. It is an important issue to discuss. And you are also probably correct about Wild's threat of being sued as a million-to-one shot. However, I have a lot of members depending on me to do the right thing. Even if there's only a cold chance in hell of something occurring, I'd rather be cautious (for their sakes) than sorry. As the "head" of something, you don't always get to act in the interests of the "heart." You sometimes have to shuffle your own personal feelings to the background and make what seems to be the best well-thought-out choice that serves the greatest number of people. As to your questions about the suitability of a particular poem for the public forums, that's a difficult consideration to wrap up with nice easy answers. I wish I could write down some handy-dandy rules that would be a snap to understand and always applicable in every case. Like no four-letter words, no sex scenes, no this, no that, no the other thing. But it's not that simple. That's why we choose to make these decisions on a case-by-case basis. Lisa was correct. Every member of the staff gets to take a look and come to his/her own conclusions. Then we discuss it back and forth and I usually side with the majority. Unless, of course, it's blatantly over-the-line. Then they know they have permission to take immediate action by themselves. I suppose instead of specific "rules," we have general guidelines. If it's written specifically to arouse and titillate, and it has no other focus, it's erotica. I think we can all identify that. We have no restrictions against four-letter words or strong language. We do allow oblique references to sexuality/sensuality. That's why your first two poems would pass for public viewing. And granted, after that it gets kind of sticky. In the case of less clear-cut issues, I try to judge based on how the adult content is handled in the context of the piece. Is the poem trying to make a political/social point? Or is it just using references to sex/sexual parts in a gratuitous fashion? Sex for sex's sake? How explicit is it? Is it just a breast or a thigh? Or am I seeing penises and vaginas floating by? Another kind of guideline I use is TV. Would it play on major TV networks before 9:00 p.m.? If so, then we let it remain on the public boards. If it's only for late night or pay TV, we put it in Erotica. I think most of us adults, having lived in the world for quite a while, know instinctively when something belongs in the locked room. Ninety-five percent of the time, it's an open-and-shut case. For that other five percent, I depend on myself, the staff, and the author to do the right thing. And yes, I'm always going to be more cautious than brazen. If not, my mailbox fills up with hate mail from our more conservative members and I'd rather spare myself answering 150 e-mails in a day. But let's drop straight down to the bottom line here, Allen. I repeat -- consignment to the Erotica forum is not punishment, nor is it dooming a piece to outer-Mongolian hell. The Erotica forum is JUST as accessible to ANY member OVER THE AGE OF 18 as any of the public forums. In fact, being moved to Erotica usually has the opposite effect on any piece -- it gets viewed MORE than it would have in the public forums due to the controversy. People see the note I leave for the author saying the piece has been moved, and they stampede the Erotica forum. Take Alan's current piece -- I'd be willing to bet it has a thousand hits by now. The Erotica forum is not a waste of time, Allen. Sometimes it's less active, sometimes it's more active. But it does depend on members being willing to go there and view it, keep it alive and thrumming. Why would you want to post a poem on the public forums and risk potentially upsetting conservative members like Ava or having some kid stumble over it, when there's a perfectly good forum just waiting for controversial work and has like-minded people reading it? Is the only point of your posting it on a public forum to get conservative people in an uproar? Why force someone to read something they don't want to read? Just for the satisfaction of being able to say, "There! I betcha that made your hair stand on end!!"? The Erotica forum is not hidden, it's doesn't have a cryptic code on the door that requires an IQ of 140 to decipher, it's not the Hall of Shame. It's right out there for people to enjoy and easy to click on. You don't even have to go through a security check to enter. All you need is a private password which we are more than happy to provide to anyone over the age of 18 (no other restrictions apply). I don't see why you've got such a bug up your butt about the Erotica forum. Ask anyone who's been in it -- it's a perfectly fine place. I believe it even has some nice hot tubs and other sensuous features. What's wrong with that??? I'm sorry, Allen. Unless you can convince me the Erotica forum is worse than being up to your eyeballs in a cesspool, I'm having a hard time understanding what your objection to it is. It is no less viewable than any other forum here at Wild. Please tell me you're not just posting for the "thatta boy's" and hundreds of pats on the back. Love, M | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7731 Registered: 11-1998 |
Just read your last comment, Allen. We are NOT restricting artistic freedom. An artist is free to write anything he/she wants. We ARE restricting viewing, but simply to a very small segment of the population (those under the age of 18). Everyone else gets to see it if they want. C'mon, Allen. Get off your political horse for a minute and take a look at what the real issue is here. We're not banning controversial material. It's not freedom or the slow death of freedom. It's keeping sensitive material out of kid's hands. That's it -- that's all. Every community everywhere in this country attempts to keep sensitive material out of children's hands. How many XXX-rated video stores (LIVE NUDE SHOWS signs blinking in bright red neon) do you see in the middle of upper-class neighborhoods? And how many of those kinds of stores let in kids under the age of 18? I'm a big proponent of freedom myself, Allen. But I do understand that conservative people have a right to their freedom as well. If I put it in a place that has warnings on the door, then it's their fault if they go in there and see it. Live and let live, Allen. Don't force your freedom down someone else's throat. Excuse me for saying this, but isn't that what we're doing in Iraq? Love, M P.S. If you're looking for some utopian place where there are no "rules" against freedom (artistic or otherwise), I'm afraid you are going to have to look outside this particular planet, hon. From what I've seen, this no-holds-barred, damn-the-torpedos, art-for-art's sake, don't-fence-me-in vision doesn't exist anywhere. However, if you do happen to find one, let me know. I want to see how long it takes for them to cannibalize each other. *sigh* | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 3587 Registered: 08-2003 |
Allen, I agree that we must be 100% vigilant with regard to our freedoms. That freedom is in part what this country was founded upon—freedom of speech being one of our most precious. But there is no battle lost here in my opinion. I see this as a victory—a place where we can air our considerations and at the end of the day perhaps expand our personal views. We all have different ways of perceiving. It is a tricky balance to protect the rights of an individual in a group of individuals. Judgment calls are necessary since reality is essentially, agreement. What we agree on to be real, is. In other cultures a glimpse of a woman’s mouth is sinful. In this forum we do our best to honor both the poet and the reader. Wild protects your right to have an opinion as we protect all of our members. I think you know what might be gratuitous and over the line. If there is a question it doesn’t hurt to ask. All things in perspective the eclectic views of Wild’s members are what makes it an interesting place to be. Along with our freedoms, as Sis has stated, comes responsibility. Rome fell for the lack of it and if we as individuals are to learn anything from history it seems that choices must be made for the greater good. We may not always agree with those choices but we can do our best to respect them--not as an intention to suppress creativity but as a desire to protect everyone’s freedoms to participate and enjoy its fruits. E | ||
| Ava South
Valued Member Username: avasouth Post Number: 209 Registered: 05-2006 |
In spite of the fact that almost everything has been said here about this admittedly sticky subject, I have to chime in again. I am a natural blabbermouth and have been told so at time by different people. Here goes. Allen, I respect your strong feelings about this subject. I would take issue with one thing. I think of myself as a creative person, but part of my freedom, creative or otherwise is my choice as to what I see and read. I find that some images, words, and phrases get in the way of learning, my prime reason for being on the web at all. I love seeing my work up for others, but more than that, I appreciate the lessons I get from others. The Erotica heading lets me know right off that it is not my genre so certainly not a place for me. I may enjoy reading or viewing erotica at times, but not necessarily while I am thumbing through my newspaper. It's the same for this site. I signed on for a PG site because I felt it would be right for me. After I explored it, I saw the Erotica forum and passed it by as I would an adult bookstore if I was on my way to buy groceries. My whole point is that I appreciate being given a choice. An example is our local nude beach at Bolivar. While I have enjoyed swimming in the buff on numerous occasions and may do so again, I choose not to do it in public. This particular strip (no pun intended) of beach is off the beaten path and not on the way to anywhere except to this beach. So, unless I want to see and be seen, I don't go there. But, that being said, I see nothing at all wrong with what goes on there. I have seen nudists from there interviewed who are people like you and me who have a desire to share their avocation with others of like mind. In fact, the tourists who go to this beach to gawk and laugh strike me as voyeurs who invade the privacy of the nudists there, since there is a prominent warning sign posted at the entrance. Please continue to post your work here at WP, giving us a chance to enjoy and sometimes critique your poems. I enjoy you very much and see you for who you are, a poet and an all around fun guy. Ava Ava | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Advanced Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 1101 Registered: 08-2004 |
Ya know even rednecks have to stop and wipe their feet every once in a while. A couple of summers ago some boys in our rural neighborhood went on a bb gun rampage. They were shooting at birds, dogs and houses. I told the boys to stop and by the third time that I told them to stop I was informed that they had spoken to their father and was told that they could shoot bb guns. Well... tsk tsk I told them that the next time I saw a gun of any kind on my property it was going to be smashed against the giant pecan tree in my yard. Needless to say, it happened. Two guns went to pieces in front of two young boys. Their father came yelling about rights and law. The law came as well. I explained that I did not appreciate having my rights stomped on, and I gave fair warnings. I explained that a toddler with the most beautiful eyes lived here, along with precious animals and that I was here to protect them. Long long story short-- they are now (father and cop that is) teaching a gun safety class at the local elementary school. I'm very liberal Allen, but I have my limits and will be respected. (((smile))) Karen | ||
| Bren
Advanced Member Username: bren Post Number: 1351 Registered: 12-2001 |
Moving something to a more suitable forum is not the same thing as deleting and banning or stifling the creative juices. No one has been shut down by the move. I think you'll find that more people read behind the closed door than you realize, they just choose not to make their presense known. Because this site is open to all ages someone has to make a decision whether certain things are suitable for the whole and I don't think the decision was made in haste. There has always been a closed door policy on erotica at Wild. Speaking as one who has been banned for political content and opinions voiced at another poetry board the difference between being moved to another forum and being locked, banned or deleted are many. I've experienced having my poetry displayed while I had no rights or permission to either view, delete, or move it myself...total shut down. That really pissed me off and sent me as far away from open poetry boards as I could get for the most part except for posting here on occasion. Bren PenShells | ||
| SplinterGroup
Advanced Member Username: splinter Post Number: 1343 Registered: 11-2003 |
O.K. Sweetie pies, here we go. First off the piece was more---in my opinion ---- neurotic than erotic. But it was as "M", my dear friend said "over the bounds" and as far as advertising a site on the internet that sells prophalatics you are allaware I'm sure that that was not my intent at all. It was just so friggin' unbelievable that a site could be consturcted that ripped off Hoime Depot and Office Depot so blatantly and sleazy-commercially. I don't have the least amount of distaste with the product they sell. It was just their way of being so unimaginative as to rip off the other places. Then of course my imagination got the better of me and I overlaid the idea of Home Depot and its vast cavernous building with the idea of a sex shop and whammmmmmmmmo! Another gadfly piece that got a lot of people arguing and talking and thinking about a subject that had no part whatsoever in the piece--- censorship! To be perfectly honest ,yall, The piece worked better than I wever dreamed it would. When Socrates went out into the streets of Athens to teach the young people--actually young men mostly---since the Greeks belived women realy weren't educable--- he asked them questions rathewr than preached to them. "What is courage" he would ask them for instance and then they would discuss what they thought courage was. All the while Soctates kept asking them questions that were very uncomfortable to make them define the real meaning of the terms they used and to examine very closely what they had been told and taught. "Is it courage to fight when you know there is no hope of victory?" he wouldn ask them. And off they would go to a deeper understanding of what they really believed and why they believed it. Eventually as I assume you all know he pissed off enough people that they killed him with poison that he could have refused if he would recant and stop bothwering people with hius questions.. Hid damn questions! Sometime before they killed Socrates some interested person asked Socrates his occupation. " A Gadfly" He said "Stinging peoiple awake and making them uncomfortable with their self-assured complacency. I am not claiming to be a thousandth the man taht Socrates was. I do admire and try to imitate him and his method from time to time. I sing in the shower but I know I am not Pavoroti either. But I do like to believe I am the best Alan Addotto singer alive today . I am alos the best "gadfly " my limited and huimble intelligence allows me to be. Addotto?/SplinterGroup/ A very minor son of Socrates, | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 8336 Registered: 07-2001 |
Continue, my friend. No poison here, simply boxes for some things and other boxes for others. Seriously, the person who pays the bills has the most say as to which box. Now if the gummermint believed that. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House Spring MindFire War/Peace | ||
| Ava South
Valued Member Username: avasouth Post Number: 230 Registered: 05-2006 |
Much like a tiny splinter can make a full blown infection, this thread just goes on and on, doesn't it? I sort of put in my two cents worth, stood by and watched and listened, and learned a lot. I learned that we are human, prone to error, also prone to making mountains out of molehills, and that after all is said and done, we are still who we are, a little community of people who write. Personally, I would like to thank you splinter, for being a spark to this lengthly discussion. The fur did fly for a while, but I hope no one's feelings got hurt. No tetanus shots needed. We all certainly spoke our mind with no censorship about that. Ya'll are such a cool bunch. (I wonder did Socrates ever visit Texas? He would sure do a lot for the Aggie/UT debates) And Gary, you know ol Dubya and his bunch don't cotton to anyone telling them what to do with our money or anything else we USED to have, like rights. Ava | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7769 Registered: 11-1998 |
Hey, SplinterGroup -- I'm so old, I actually knew Socrates, and I can tell you, you ain't no Socrates. *Sittin' here laughin' my ass off* Seriously, Alan, I knew your intent with the piece. I knew it was social commentary, I knew it was irony, I knew it was comedy, I knew it was satire, I knew it was all the things it was. I had no problem interpreting you. What I did have a problem with is the fact that you KNOW we're PG-13 and all, and you STILL posted it in a public forum. The damn thing has references to backdoor activities, and sex toys, blow-up party dolls, and Anal-Ease. It's not that I'm against any of those things (in fact, I enjoy some of them myself during Hobby Hour *LOL*). But you have to know by now that this doesn't belong in the kiddies' hands and we won't let it fly out in public. Please, Alan. In the future, put those things in the Adult Content forum. I hate runnin' around smackin' you with a ruler. It makes me look mean, number one, and b, like a party-pooper. We have guidelines, Alan, and you've been around long enough to know what they are. If you're tryin' to raise my blood pressure, don't. I do love ya', Alan, but sometimes you get on my last nerve. Love, M | ||
| Montie Michelle Barbour
Valued Member Username: montiebatmom Post Number: 159 Registered: 04-2006 |
Dang....Alan I cant take you anywhere....lmao Turn my back for 5 minutes (and 14 days) and you causing ruckus on the site....*runs and hides* I guess this is where I need to show my perving tendencies and request access to the erotica side...who wants to divulge? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7832 Registered: 11-1998 |
Hi, Montie -- to gain access to the Adult Content forum, all you have to do is be over the age of 18 and ask for membership. Which you did. And which I approved. You now have a private membership. Your username/password combination are the same. If you have any troubles unlocking the door, let me know and I will check into it. Best, M P.S. I was wondering who was responsible for letting Alan out of his cage. I don't envy you trying to keep tabs on him. I've been trying for almost a decade now, and I haven't had any luck. Next time, let us know you're cleaning his cage and he's out and about. It'll help if we're prepared. *LMAO* Just teasing, Alan and Montie! | ||
| Dale McLain
Senior Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 2794 Registered: 11-2004 |
Montie~ Oh, yes girl... it is H O T over there... LOL! Well, it's interesting anyway.  take care~dale | ||
| Montie Michelle Barbour
Valued Member Username: montiebatmom Post Number: 160 Registered: 04-2006 |
thanks M....I swear....its a ch*tty job but someone's gotta do it....who brought the febreez?lol dale....I'm sure...as good as this group is on the PG site i can only imagine..lol |
