| Author | Message | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 1762 Registered: 08-2003 |
I have been told since time immemorial (well since I started writing 2 years ago) that "ings" were out in poetry. I dutifully edit my "ings" from my poems and from the poetry of others but why or why is this is no no? In simple not too complicated grammar concepts please. E | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 4798 Registered: 07-2001 |
The simple answer - ings are passive voice, not active. The counter-argument is that they have more music. When it is raining and children are playing, listen to birds singing and grass growing or When it rains and children play, listen to birds sing and grass grow Okay not great, but makes the point if there is one. Smiles. Gary The new, August FireWeed is ready for you to read. Go in through http://www.mindfirerenew.com/ to get to the issue in a click or two. | ||
| marty
Advanced Member Username: marty Post Number: 651 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks E, you read my mind on that question. Personally, I have posted poem that have "ing" but their presence was not commented on. There were also poems I posted where the "ing" was commented on and suggested to be taken away. I just go with gut feel, and sometimes I feel that I could not express a thing the way I intended it without the gerund. So I post it, until someone suggests a better idea. just like the way gary placed it above. | ||
| Dale McLain
Advanced Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 1310 Registered: 11-2004 |
Talking about gerunds is so exciting. My heart is racing and leaping! I'm eager to be reading and writing but it's time that I was sleeping. Forgive me for that... I try to use ing as little as possible, though sometimes it seems to work. at least that's what I'm thinking...  take care~dale | ||
| Joshua Johnston
New member Username: silverfire Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2005 |
Um, actually, gerunds are not necessarily passive. Grammatically speaking, at least. Passive voice in grammar is where the object of the sentence is in the subject position. "The boy hit the ball" is active. "The ball was hit (by the boy)" is passive. The subject is being acted *upon,* which is what makes it passive. "The birds are singing" is not passive. It's simply a statement; the action in the sentence is "singing," and the subject of the sentence is the one doing the action. It's along similar lines as "The ball is blue" (which is equating the subject and the object). Now, if you said "The birds are being changed," that would be passive. Once again, the grammatical subject is being acted upon, not performing the action. The presence or absence of a gerund has almost nothing to do with whether the sentence is active or passive. All that said, there are certainly times when using a gerund is not the best way to phrase something. And there are times when it might be the best way. All depends on the context and the intent of the poet. That's the opinion I'm having, anyway. ;) PS. Can you tell I'm a linguist? :p | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 4800 Registered: 07-2001 |
Joshua, you are right, but still my objection. But I object far less these days than I did last year and before. Basically, I think poets who consistently use ings do so without adequate thought to the alternatives. When I was really hard over on them, I asked poets and that was generally the answer. Rhymers are a different basket of words. U of W grad! Go Dawgs. Smiles. Gary The new, August FireWeed is ready for you to read. Go in through http://www.mindfirerenew.com/ to get to the issue in a click or two. | ||
| Penelope
Valued Member Username: penelope Post Number: 201 Registered: 07-2005 |
Oh goody, grammar. Great description of active and passive voice, Joshua. There's a little confusion about gerunds. A gerund is a verbal noun ending in "ing:" It acts as a noun although it can take an object or be modified by an adjective or adverb. Writing(gerund)poetry is my favorite activity. What you all seem to be talking about is this construction: He is writing a poem. "is writing" here is a verb not a gerund. It's a a legitimate verb tense that used to be called "progressive form" and is used to represent action as continuing at the time noted. Bottom line, there may be times when that verb tense is appropriate to the poem, but for the most part no, but not because it's passive. (Message edited by penelope on September 14, 2005) (Message edited by Penelope on September 14, 2005) Penelope | ||
| Joshua Johnston
New member Username: silverfire Post Number: 19 Registered: 06-2005 |
Thanks for the addition there, Penelope. I must not have eaten all my Wheaties when I made my post or something. ;) I agree that the progressive tense should be used sparingly; there may be times when it's the "right" tense to use, but mostly using the regular past or present tense is stronger. For that matter, I think that about the passive voice, too. Depending on what you want to emphasize, passive voice may be the best construction. Active voice emphasizes the doer of the action, while passive emphasizes the action done (and the recipient of the action): "Lives were lost today as New Orleans flooded" vs "The flooding of New Orleans killed many people today." The first sentence brings out the fact that people died a lot better (and stronger) than the second sentence. While the second sentence brings out what *caused* the loss of life. And I think that's a good spot to end my post. :D PS. Yep, a UW grad, Gary. BA in Linguistics. I took a poetry class my last quarter there, actually. I needed some more credits and I didn't want to take anything hard. | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 1771 Registered: 08-2003 |
Well that was a veeeeery involved answer guys. Thanks much. Active/passive and different views on that. I guess the context is the key factor in whether to "ing" or not to "ing."  E | ||
| Penelope
Valued Member Username: penelope Post Number: 205 Registered: 07-2005 |
E, you are the queen of paraphrase!!! LMAO. Penelope | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 1772 Registered: 08-2003 |
P, I'm into g-string explanations. If it goes into a panty waist discussion, I'm in over my head. x E | ||
| Laurie Byro
Advanced Member Username: lauriette Post Number: 1246 Registered: 11-2003 |
hey when I was being mentored by Mark, he didn't worry about ing's much. He didn't like adverbs and said to avoid them and he siad almost ALWAYS write in present tense for imeediacy. I still tend to change past to present as he suggested. I think folks that get caught up in these "rules" are writing the way billy collins said poetry shouldn't be examined. Something about tying a poem to a chair and beating it with a hose? I think if we write while these critics sit on our shoulders, we lose ultimately. Mark helped me grow enormously, that was his job. But we started with him telling me I was an "accomplished writer" most folks who toil at this in these workshops who practise writing are already serious enough and dedicated enough to be considered accomplished. What i liked about mark, like about him still, is he knew what he knew and said what he said and I didn't have to debate it with him. Today, I would question some of his editing, in those days never. Another good thing to do. Find a mentor or a couple of mentors and stick with them over the years. It's a different sort of friendship and one to be honoured and it grows with the writing. my two cents laurie | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 1773 Registered: 08-2003 |
Laurie all great advices. Especially the mentoring bit. I think it's as important to be one (if one has the opportunity) as it is to have one. Either way you learn so much! E | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 4816 Registered: 07-2001 |
Seconding Laurie. When a couple of outstanding poets take you hand, you will succeed. I had the good fortune to have several. And throw yourself into the tough forums. Immersion into crits will either improve your work or kill you. Smiles. Gary The new, August FireWeed is ready for you to read. Go in through http://www.mindfirerenew.com/ to get to the issue in a click or two. |
