| Author | Message | ||
| Dale McLain
Advanced Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 1236 Registered: 11-2004 |
When I lost my faith I hardly noticed it all, so small a thing like an earring or a dime slipped between the sofa cushions . In church my mind wandered. The hymns rewrote themselves. I heard things like “Onward Christian Soldiers”- absurd! As if a hymn could be a war chant! Each time I took communion the portions increased. I considered taking home the Host, making sandwiches or croutons. I forgot my prayers, forgot how to button them up with a neat amen. Still my favorite scholar wore the robes of faith, though he told me how he doubted, relying only on one footfall and then the other. You have to hang your hat somewhere, he said. I was done with it all, or so I thought, unfettered underneath the cold, hard stars. But there was the moon and the waves, that pull so strong it drew me in once more, whispered in my ear, I am. I have resurrected my little faith, plucked it from its early grave amid stale popcorn and pocket change, offered it another chance, but with the smallest expectations. I want only the slightest mercy… and I swear I will be good. (Message edited by sparklingseas on August 30, 2005) | ||
| Cary
Valued Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 267 Registered: 07-2005 |
Dale... Faith is nearly inexplicable... but you've done an excellent job of bringing it into focus... at least for yourself. I love how you've supposed it as an earring or a dime, slipped beneath the couch cushions. In the latter case, I guess we could blame our holey pockets.  S1... I also love how you button a prayer with an amen... but I think the strophe is a bit weak in lines 8,9 and 10 and must ask if they're really necessary. S2... The connection to nature seems to hint at a tendency to want to believe in Evolutionism. Nothing wrong with that and I just wanted to mention that I often find myself in a similar tug-o-war between it and Intelligent Design. In response to your favorite scholar who professes that you must hang your hat somewhere, I hang my hat on the fence. S3... Excellent! You need but tweezer out the apostrophe in "it's" (L2) to make it perfect. Overall, I'd borrow a thumb to give you three of them, up. Cary... | ||
| "A-Bear"
Moderator Username: dane Post Number: 1279 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dale --you might consider eliminating "it all" in L1 but I will stop there from a full critique of do's and do not's. I enjoyed this as much as any other you've written and you summed up faith nicely in that last stanza. For me, it all bridges on the infamous promise, "I swear I will be good." Yeah, how many times have we said that? I read once about a man looking for a parking space. He was late for a very important appointment. He was praying for God to perform a miracle and help him find a parking spot. Swore he'd work harder, be nicer to his wife, play with his kids, etc., etc., and just as he began to promise more of this and that, a car backed out and a parking space became available. His comment to God was then, "Oh, never mind, I found one." *smile* Ain't it the truth? D | ||
| Christopher T George
Advanced Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 2138 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Dale A thought-provoking piece, nicely written. I especially like the way the speaker contrasts her faith with small inconsequential things-- so small a thing like an earring or a dime slipped between the sofa cushions. . . I have resurrected my little faith, plucked it from it’s early grave amid stale popcorn and pocket change, offered it another chance, Very nice! This is strong writing, Dale. "it’s early grave" -- not apostrophe in its The hymns rewrote themselves. I heard things like “Onward Christian Soldiers”- absurd! As if a hymn could be a war chant! -- okay although I almost wanted you to mis-hear the title. Each time I took communion the portions increased. I considered taking home the Host, making sandwiches or croutons. I forgot my prayers, forgot how to button them up with a neat amen. -- again fine writing! In the following section, this is all still nice but could perhaps be tightened up some, and I have some questions below-- Still my favorite scholar wore the robes of faith, though he told me how he doubted, relying only on one footfall and then the other. You have to hang your hat somewhere, he said. I was done with it all, or so I thought, unfettered underneath the cold, hard stars. -- I find myself wanting to know who the "favorite scholar" might be -- the designation seems ambiguous and unsatisfactory after we have been introduced to your earring, dime, and sofa cushions. Can't you make them a specific friend or give them a name (if a recognizable scholar, or a fictionalized name if you don't want to have someone mentioned by their actual name). "relying only on one footfall and then the other" -- seems to me this could be said with more punch and clarity, same image but less wordy. But there was the moon and the waves, that pull so strong it drew me in once more, whispered in my ear, I am. -- by "it" I believe here the speaker means their faith, but it seems that the pulling is being done by the moon and the waves the way the sentence is structured. So it seems to me this needs a fix. Overall, Dale, the poem is provocative and interesting. You have a few things to brush up but the poem should be easy to finalize. Good luck, Dale! Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com/ http://chrisgeorge.netpublish.net/ http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com | ||
| M
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 5056 Registered: 11-1998 |
Should I keep beating the dead "this is prose" horse, Dale, or do you want me to quit pointing that out to you? Just tell me to stop and I will not go away angry, I'll just go away. *smile* I'm in agreement with bear on the elimination of "it all" in that first line. And you should have an "its" not an "it's" in this line: "plucked it from it’s early grave" but beyond that, Dale, you're are one HELL of a good prose writer. Why you won't just let go of those line breaks I'll never know. *grin* | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 2800 Registered: 07-2002 |
Dale, Love this final stanza: I have resurrected my little faith, plucked it from its early grave amid stale popcorn and pocket change, offered it another chance, but with the smallest expectations. I want only the slightest mercy… and I swear I will be good. That last line--perfect. best, ljc http://ljcbluemuse.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Advanced Member Username: kathy Post Number: 2402 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dale, enjoyed. Faith is what it is for you. K | ||
| Dale McLain
Advanced Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 1239 Registered: 11-2004 |
Cary~ Thank you for thoughtful comments. My hat rests beside yours on the fence... subject to every breeze and rain cloud that passes over. Dane~ Glad you liked. I like the parking place story... that's the way it goes. Now, you be good, okay? (Oh, Dane~ So glad to hear your folks all survived!! The magnitude of this tragedy is staggering.) Chris~ I really appreciate your thoughtful comments and suggestions. I will certainly consider them as polish this one. Thanks so much! M~ OOOO! That ugly "P-word" again! LOL! I wanna, be a P O E T!! (that was a whine there... hard to convey)... I soldier on. And I appreciate your honesty... if it's prosey to you, feel free to say so (even if it does make me want to cry... JUST KIDDING!). Lisa~ Thanks! Glad you liked! Kathy~ Thank you all so much! take care all~dale | ||
| steve
Moderator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 129 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hi Dale On the bit about prose. i think you have a prose poem here. it is a form that haunts the borderlands between prose and poetry but lands on the poetry side because of its use of extended metaphor and simile. it does not have concentrated language, has complete sentences, no fragments here. it also does not have line breaks, just paragraphs. in many cases, print especially, editors prefer prose poems because they can fit them into a spot on their page that they need to fill, they can break the lines where ever they want, fit it into a long narrow strip, widen it out. In short a prose poem is flexible and hence has an advantage in the 'getting printed' game. Lastly, there's nothing wrong with prose poetry, tis not a dirty word. if that is your voice, go with it and be happy s | ||
| Cary
Valued Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 288 Registered: 07-2005 |
Dale... Just to re-add my two cents and confirm your status as a poet in my eyes, I humbly disagree with M and Steve about your work being prose. If it takes sentence fragments and concentrated language to make poetry, then the people who award the title "Poet Laureate" need to recall the one they gave to Billy Collins. The way I see it, poetry began as a complete sentence affair. Take Homer or Rumi for example... and it wasn't until the 20th century when minimalism and fragmented poetry (which happens to drive me batty) really began to affirm its claim as an evolved form of poetry. My dictionary tells me that prose is ordinary language in speaking or writing... and the only thing ordinary here is the ingredients. It's what those ingredients add to the pot that makes this every bit extraordinary. In a nutshell, defining poetry is like trying to define love. We all have different answers and just for the record, my definition of poetry unequivocally includes Dale. Cary... (Message edited by ponderlust on September 04, 2005) | ||
| steve
Moderator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 130 Registered: 05-2005 |
dale/cary on the comparison to the ancients, first they all wrote in meter, second it usually rhymed. yes they used sentences, but they had those other 'poetic' devices as well, simile, metaphor, iambic beat, etc. and once again, I didn't say this was not poetry. Just that it doesn't have meter, doesn't have rhyme, doesn't have assonance, consonance, alliteration, internal rhyme, meaningful line breaks. It does have all of the conjunctions, the articles of prose. It does have metaphor and simile found in poetry. that is how i arrive at prose poetry, not to say someone else would differ, but just wanted to illustrate how i got there. M wrote a poem a few years ago, and put in line breaks, two editors replied that they would publish it, but as a prose poem. So M took out the line breaks and returned it, they printed it in paragraphs. I guess what we're trying to say, is it is best to match the content of the piece to the best form for that content. right or wrong, that is the prevailing winds of publishing and style these days. hope this helps clarify i guess i should have been more clear. sorry about that s | ||
| Cary
Valued Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 289 Registered: 07-2005 |
right or wrong, that is the prevailing winds of publishing and style these days. That's a fair statement Steve. But to them I would point out Billy Collins, his blue jeans poetry and the fact that there is no such thing as a Prose Poet Laureate. Here's an example of his (published) work and please take note that all the devices you said were absent in Dale's poem, are also absent in this one (maybe a few keen line breaks): On Turning Ten The whole idea of it makes me feel like I'm coming down with something, something worse than any stomach ache or the headaches I get from reading in bad light-- a kind of measles of the spirit, a mumps of the psyche, a disfiguring chicken pox of the soul. You tell me it is too early to be looking back, but that is because you have forgotten the perfect simplicity of being one and the beautiful complexity introduced by two. But I can lie on my bed and remember every digit. At four I was an Arabian wizard. I could make myself invisible by drinking a glass of milk a certain way. At seven I was a soldier, at nine a prince. But now I am mostly at the window watching the late afternoon light. Back then it never fell so solemnly against the side of my tree house, and my bicycle never leaned against the garage as it does today, all the dark blue speed drained out of it. This is the beginning of sadness, I say to myself, as I walk through the universe in my sneakers. It is time to say good-bye to my imaginary friends, time to turn the first big number. It seems only yesterday I used to believe there was nothing under my skin but light. If you cut me I could shine. But now when I fall upon the sidewalks of life, I skin my knees. I bleed. --Billy Collins I wanted to show you his poem "Piano Lessons"... but unfortunately, there isn't a copy of my favorite poem available on the net. Regards, Cary... | ||
| Cary
Valued Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 290 Registered: 07-2005 |
One last thing... in short, I would hate for any of the young poets to be wrongly influenced by your, my or even an editor's interpretation of what makes a poem a poem. Instead, I would hope that they realize that it's subjective and that they should decide for themselves. After all, what's important is what literature means to us as individuals. Cary... | ||
| steve
Moderator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 131 Registered: 05-2005 |
Hi Cary well you said it, 'a few keen line breaks' note also the sounds in this piece, listen to the long E's in the last stanza, notice how it flows in its rhythm. look at the last 4 lines in s3, see how they repeat the last 3 lines of s1. see how uses the device of repeating 'something' in s1. notice the contrast between 'complexity' and 'simplicity' as you notice the similarity in sound. i agree the distinction is slight and subtle but then again if you're Billy Collins, I expect you get to break some rules, having already proven you know them. tis a good discussion Cary, thx for posting this piece, enjoyed the read. s | ||
| steve
Moderator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 132 Registered: 05-2005 |
hi dale, cary well, i'm back. i want to thank you both for this thread. i've gone off and done some more research. one other thing i've read about and can see in this billy collins poem is this notion. each line can stand on its own. each line is a complete thought, and even when the sentence spans two lines, the line break is in such a place that both parts of the same sentence can have alternate meanings. notice also, that in very few cases are there periods in the middle of a line. commas, yes, periods no. so, each line breaks at a deliberate place, whether the end of a sentence or the end of a thought, bracketed by a strategic line break. when the poets in books do enjamb. they usually only do it with one word. ( end of sentence, than one word to start the next sentence before the line break) in the collins piece, note that his short lines are complete sentences or complete thoughts, he could have put part of the next sentence on the same line but did not. as i re-read your piece dale, i see you also, have not put many periods in the middle of lines, but, the words you've chosen to break on seem random, as if chosen by how long the line above is. just as an illustration, suppose you dropped 'it all' at the end of line 1 and ended that line at 'noticed' -- do you see how the meaning of noticed changes as you read further? yet both parts of that sentence can be read by themselves ( which is true with the 'it all' but you don't get the same affect with 'noticed'). hope this illustrates what i meant about the line break thing a bit more. sorry i was unclear earlier, but i was actually unsure myself, so thanks much for sending me off on this journey. s | ||
| Cary
Intermediate Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 315 Registered: 07-2005 |
Steve... Yup.. that's Collins to a tee. I see that the line breaks are indeed, the biggest difference between Dale's poem and his and you have a very valid point about how her ending sentences mid-line fights the flow of her ideas and might even make them seem a bit prose-like. While I still credit the whole as poetry since I believe that had her poem been spoken aloud, the nuances concerning line breaks between her poem and Collins would have been subtle at most. I find that when it comes to written word many writers are so concerned with a geometric presentation that casting it thusly often goes against the grain of how they would offer it orally. In short, I think you are right about the line breaks and that if Dale would lose that air of randomness and show less concern for geometry, the excellence would be crystal and the naysayers mum. Interesting thread Steve. I've enjoyed the discussion. Cary... | ||
| Cary
Intermediate Member Username: ponderlust Post Number: 318 Registered: 07-2005 |
Oh and in regards to internal rhyme, assonance, consonance and alliteration, IMHO, they are the icing of devices. Regardless of what any editor says, they are elective, bonus components of poetry. While they may appease the ears and the tongue, excellence demands nothing less than the poem inspire the mind to think or to do. Think about it? Do your favorite poems encourage your perspective of life to evolve or do they sound really neat? Maybe they do both but at least in my case, it is the former that makes them dear to me. Cary... | ||
| Dale McLain
Advanced Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 1274 Registered: 11-2004 |
Well guys... this has been a very interesting discussion... and I've learned a lot. I need all sorts of help and line breaks seem to be an especially weak point for me. So, this is all good and helpful. I like the concept of each line standing alone, though it seems a bit daunting. I've enjoyed this thread very much... so fun to watch poets wrestle! Next time maybe you could take off your shirts!  take care boys~dale |
