| Author | Message | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27006 Registered: 07-2001 |
Out of the quarrel with others we make rhetoric; out of the quarrel with ourselves we make poetry. ~W.B. Yeats I asked for samples, but would appreciate quotes such as this one. And there is this unnecessary screed http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/art/archives/160330.asp not the critic who started the conversation, but the one who wrote a real "poem". Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 576 Registered: 03-2008 |
Ridiculous. I posted a comment. See if you can figure out which is me. har de har har | ||
| Ron Stewart
New member Username: rom555555 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2008 |
please pordon me Gary, I know I'm new to this forum, and I know I'm going to make lots of mistakes before I learn how to critique every form of poetry, and I know the persons who put this forum together didn't want pety bickering within the ranks of it's users, so do forgive me please sir, for I must relay to Mr Roby that there are other works of prose that Mr. Billy Collins has writtin. One of these is a introduction in a book of poetry Call "Poetry 180" one of the subjects that he wrote about in this introduction was about obscurity in poetry, one of the things he said, and one of the many things I agree with is and I quote: Obscurity is just another way to hide bad poetry. please forgive me Gary for my little outburst...... regards......Ron Stewart | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 578 Registered: 03-2008 |
First of all -- What? I don't understand why this remark was aimed at me. I haven't said anything about obscurity, Billy Collins, or "bad poetry". Except to defend it -- I love bad poems. But I must say, if Billy Collins is the be all and end all of poetry, let's all go out and write poems about our cigarettes. Cheers. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27022 Registered: 07-2001 |
WF, I found your post. But if you post there (or most of these places) first you have to dis liberals or conservatives (take you pick). Grin. Obscurity is just another way to hide bad poetry. I don't know the context but I've never imagined Collins as someone who put down others. But on its face, I disagree. Sometime all obscurity is is the lack of opportunity. It might mean the lack of education, training or simply help. But those who toil alone can be fine poets. As witness our Queen Emily. BTW, I don't like bad poems, but many are not bad. There are just incomplete, lacking help. Those truly bad is where serious help is offered and rejected - so the poet continues writing poor verse. Smiles. Gary Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Ron Stewart
New member Username: rom555555 Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2008 |
If I have offended please forgive, perhaps im at a loss here in this place I’ve come to this place to learn how to write better poetry as well as learn to critique. I’ve seen some very good poetry as well as some very good advice on poetry. Alexander Pope wrote an assay that was published in 1709, I think, on that art , and I would imagine it is an art just as poetry is an art. The essay was called simply An Essay on Criticism. The essay is written in verse and I think the first 16 lines gives his readers a great idea of who he thinks decides what poetry is. 'Tis hard to say if greater want of skill Appear in writing or in judging ill, But of the two less dangerous is the offense To tire our patience than mislead our sense Some few in that but numbers err in this, Ten censure wrong for one who writes amiss, A fool might once himself alone expose, Now one in verse makes many more in prose. 'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none Go just alike, yet each believes his own In poets as true genius is but rare True taste as seldom is the critic share Both must alike from Heaven derive their light, These born to judge as well as those to write Let such teach others who themselves excel, And censure freely, who have written well He thinks that poets that are versed well in their art and in the art of critiquing are those that decide what poetry is, so it’s the critic that decide ( puts hand in mouth a bites down very hard ) . How can I have any confidence in those critics who keep asking what poetry is. Again if I have offended please forgive me…….Best Regards …..Ron Stewart | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 915 Registered: 07-2006 |
I didn't think Whatsername's poem was that great either, but it beats Roger Emerson's syllable counting and rhyme arranging. Also, Mr. Stewart, I'm having difficulty relating your comments to the subject of this particular thread. Will Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 3003 Registered: 04-2007 |
You can tear a poem apart to see what makes it tick.... You're back with the mystery of having been moved by words. The best craftsmanship always leaves holes and gaps... so that something that is not in the poem can creep, crawl, flash or thunder in. ~Dylan Thomas, Poetic Manifesto, 1961 (Message edited by moritric on January 26, 2009) | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27024 Registered: 07-2001 |
How can I have any confidence in those critics who keep asking what poetry is? --Ron We ask because we are interested in the whole of poetry, want to explore its limitations and enjoy the full of its pleasures. We ask because sometimes we are told a poem is not that we think is because it does not rhyme, is not iambic or et al. Does the critic decide? Actually, doesn't everyone - poet, critic, publisher, reader, nonreader? And you do not offend, so you do not need to keep apologizing. Brenda, great quote. I do not tear them apart to see what makes them tick, but so I might better enhance the art through craft. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 5387 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on January 29, 2009) From Bambi: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." From me: "Even consciousness, a pastiche of recycled cans." | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27025 Registered: 07-2001 |
In Take II, a simple request - for a sample of poetry that is not poetry... In Return, a simple request - for a a quote that might define or limit poetry... Perhaps I do not pen English all that well up here in the Big Wet. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 918 Registered: 07-2006 |
Gary, I can get you one of each tonight. Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 10770 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gary, here's some quotes: Poems must, of course, be written in emotional freedom. Moreover poems are not language, but the content of the language. A poem that is composed without the sweet and correct formalities of language, which are what sets it apart from the dailiness of ordinary writing, is doomed. It will be raucous and sloppy--the work of an amateur. --Mary Oliver Poetry is communication. Poetry's purpose is to reach other people and touch their hearts. If a poem doesn't make sense to anybody but its author, nobody but its author will care a whit about it. --Ted Kooser It's crucial to read what's being written now, to see how the language is changing and evolving; new words enter it daily, while others fall into disuse or take on different meanings. It's important to speak, and listen, to a contemporary community of readers and writers. But it's equally crucial to see where the language came from, how it is fashioned and refashioned by poets of the past. Every artist alive responds to the history of his or her art,--borrowing, stealing, rebelling against, and building on what other artists have done.--Kim Addonizio and Dorianne Laux Poetry is a spiritual endeavor. Though there is plenty of room to be playful and silly, there is much less room to be false, self-righteous, or small-minded. To write poetry is to perform an act of homage and celebration--and this even if one's poems are full of rage, lamentation, and despair. To write poetry of high order demands that we excise from our lives as much as we can that is petty and meretricious and that we open our hearts to the suffereings of the world, imbuing our art with as luminous and compassionat a spirit as we can.---Steve Kowit Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Patricia A. Marsh
Valued Member Username: patricia Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2007 |
Poetry presents the thing in order to convey the feeling. It should be precise about the thing and reticent about the feeling, for as soon as the mind responds and connects with the thing the feeling shows in the words. --Wei T'ai, 11th century Poetry is not a turning loose of emotions, but an escape from emotion; it is not the expression of personality, but an escape from personality. But, of course, only those who have personality and emotions know what it means to escape from these things. --T. S. Eliot, 20th century | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27028 Registered: 07-2001 |
I really like the Eliot, and Kooser's is neat. But then Kooser is a minor deity. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 5388 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on January 29, 2009) From Bambi: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." From me: "Even consciousness, a pastiche of recycled cans." | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 921 Registered: 07-2006 |
Well, now I can't find any of them.  Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Patricia A. Marsh
Valued Member Username: patricia Post Number: 108 Registered: 12-2007 |
Perhaps you'll find them here: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~tpl/texts/quotes.html | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27032 Registered: 07-2001 |
Poetic formalism is a bit like keeping a bale of hay in your garage to remind you of the horse-power that preceded automobiles. - Jed Rasula, "Syncopations", Univ of Alabama Press, 2004, p.130 Hands clapping. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 579 Registered: 03-2008 |
"The problem is not free verse, and the solution is not formal verse." I can't find the source of this quote, but I have it written in one of my workshop notebooks from "gradual school" (where you go to gradually figure out you don't want to be in school anymore). Another thing that one of my gradual school profs pointed out -- the only good operas in English are comedies. I think this was a statement about the difficulty of rhyme in English. *Tosses Gary $0.02 (Message edited by wfroby on January 26, 2009) | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 927 Registered: 07-2006 |
W.F., Last night I dreamed you had really long hair and a big beard. For real. I have no idea why. Will Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 10785 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gary, I like the hay bale quote. Hands clapping has an emoticon:  In posting an example of what is a bad poem, you run the risk of insulting the poet or reader who feels the poem is good, but I'll give you this one from: In the Palm of Your Hand, by Steve Kowit The Missing of You Hurts (no author credited) O you who were there all the time to show how much you truly cared, so that I knew you’d evermore be true, and gladden my heart like the sun-kissed clime. But left me like the tide goes out and we can never stop it or get it repaired, You are the only one I care so much about and yet where is to be found another like you when I look within myself or even out? I often cry thinking of you know who, and your last goodbye And yet it is indeed to me a huge question mark why you left me here to feel this way like I am dead inside making it the one and only happy day where I can see your sweet hazel eyes and face. So I wish you would come back to me and the two of us wander the beach, happy and free, for you know I still carry you in my heart no matter even if you did that day depart. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27048 Registered: 07-2001 |
Kathy, I am not looking for a bad poem, those really easy to find...but a poem that it might be argued is not a poem. This one is too common. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 10787 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gary, oops. I'll keep looking. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 580 Registered: 03-2008 |
A poem which it might be argued "is not a poem" -- Sekundenzeiger by Hans Arp daß ich als ich ein und zwei ist daß ich als ich drei und vier ist daß ich als ich wieviel zeigt sie daß ich als ich tickt und tackt sie daß ich als ich fünf und sechs ist daß ich als ich sieben acht ist daß ich als ich wenn sie steht sie daß ich als ich wenn sie geht sie daß ich als ich neun und zehn ist daß ich als ich elf und zwölf ist. -- This is a difficult statement for me to make, because I LOVE Arp and all the other dadaists (Tsara et al). However, I would certainly contend that the poetry of the Dadas is not poetry BECAUSE THEY SAID SO THEMSELVES. Getting back to my original statement about poetry and not-poetry -- if an artist declares a work is NOT a poem, then I must go with that artist's suggestion and refuse to see that work of art as a poem. Thus, Arp's above work is certainly not poetry. -- Will -- How do you know I DON'T have a big beard and long hair? Oh, right, the profile photo. Damn. I once DID have very long hair. Touched my shoulders. Alas, the little bit of Native American blood coursing through my poor abused veins will not allow my to grow a proper beard. PS -- what else happened in the dream? Should I be concerned? | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27049 Registered: 07-2001 |
Arp and Dadaists said they did not write poetry...but from this partial translation... that I as I seven eight is that I as I if it stands it that I as I if it goes it that I as I nine and ten is that I as I eleven and twelve is. There are elements of poetry present, several. And Arp broke with the D's, so not knowing when he wrote this...we do know if he thought it was or not. (You might know the date.) It may be silly poetry, written mostly for shock value, to offend, or simply be different in that D sort of way...but there is enough of poetry present to call it that - no matter how we might feel about its quality. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1175 Registered: 10-2005 |
Phoo snork fizz df34341454 sdfd Monkey9 flibber shooky skoop 27~!@!#@E dss dsd dsa asd das | ||
| Patricia A. Marsh
Valued Member Username: patricia Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2007 |
Hugo von Hoffmannsthal said, "You must hide profundity. Where? On the surface." With that in mind, I might have discovered the most superficial poem ever written, a really de-ee-eep "poem" by Ron Padgett--NOTHING IN THAT DRAWER--in 180 more, an anthology of contemporary poetry selected by Billy Collins. It's probably a "message poem" because it's written in fourteen double-spaced lines, fourteen double-spaced lines saying--over and over again--fourteen times lest the reader forget:
Like: Wow!  | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 3018 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm very interested in the dadaist poets and poetry. Any suggestions? | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 5392 Registered: 05-2006 |
I have decided it is a poem, and that's that. Moreover, it is a great poem, using as-yet-unrecognized standards of genius. Fred ............................ (Message edited by sandiegopoet on January 26, 2009) From Bambi: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." From me: "Even consciousness, a pastiche of recycled cans." | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 929 Registered: 07-2006 |
W.F., Sadly, I cannot remember the particulars of said dream, but I am pretty sure there was no malevolence or anything seedy. Back to the topic then, what if a NON-artist declares his work a poem or other. Do we take non-artists at their word? Will Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 10788 Registered: 12-2003 |
I might consider some of my very early poetry as not poems, filled with abstractions, cliche, and teenage angst as it is. But, you have to start somewhere I guess. And, I can look back at it and say, what was I thinking? Dare I post any? No. Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.~Robert Frost | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 4574 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm enjoying this discussion. Kathy- Your quotes were great, love it when Miss Oliver gets nasty as in It will be raucous and sloppy--the work of an amateur. This quest is starting to remind me of the koan about the chicken. It goes something like this: The master gives his student one thing he must do to attain enlightenment- kill a chicken, but he has to do it where no one can see it. The student comes back hours later still holding the live chicken and says he can't do it. The master asks why, and he says, because the chicken sees! You can't prove something is not a poem. That's proving a negative and we all know that's impossible. Once the words are said or written down, no matter what anyone says, it is a poem if someone thinks it's a poem! It might not be a good poem, or a very successful poem, but it is a poem because a poem is communication with the standard rules of communication turned off. OK, I'm done. You may continue to entertain me now... -Laz | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 33042 Registered: 11-1998 |
You know what? I got lotsa things to do, and I promise myself, I ain't gonna get involved no more in this crazy discussion, but then I just gotta say somethin'. So, who's crazy? You or me? Anyway, it seems to me that you don't wanna be mixin' up "What's a poem?" with "What's a good poem?" Different questions. Hey, if Freddie wants to say that "It" is a poem, okay. Who am I to argue with him? He can call "It" a poem all he wants. That don't mean no editor is going to accept "It" and print "It" in a magazine. So, there ya' go. Argue about that for a while.  Love, M | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 581 Registered: 03-2008 |
Will -- I think you've hit my nail on your head. That is to say -- for someone to create a poem and still call themselves a "non artist" implies ignorance or just plain stubbornness. I was using the word "artist" to imply "one who creates a work of art". The very act of making a poem makes one an artist. Etc. | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1176 Registered: 10-2005 |
"it seems to me that you don't wanna be mixin' up "What's a poem?" with "What's a good poem?" Different questions." Not all that different, M. As different as a square and a rectangle, maybe, where the square is good poetry. But good poetry isn't square, so that's a poor analogy. Shame on me. Anyway, the definition of "poetry" is hard to nail down because of all the subjective input and varying definitions, but there is still something of a collective subjective view that comes closer to an objective definition. Not that we can really ever have truly objective views of anything... but I digress. Or perhaps I don't... because that is why the question of poetry and of good poetry are not all that different. When someone defines what a poem is, that person is necessarily giving the ingredients of a "good" poem. The idea of "good" is as subjective as the idea of "poetry", and the two are hopelessly intertwined. Or hopefully intertwined, perhaps, depending on your water glass. So... my definition of poetry differs from others largely in terms of what I consider "good"... I might recognize other works as poetry, but I set them further from what I consider the core of the stuff... the best poetry. Good poetry. "The very act of making a poem makes one an artist." But how do you know you've made one, W.F.? Ain't that part o' the point? Here's a couple o' quotes regarding poetry... there are about as many quotes as there are writers of the stuff, as we've seen. I don't think these are comprehensive. But I like 'em. "A poet's work is to name the unnameable, to point at frauds, to take sides, start arguments, shape the world, and stop it going to sleep." Salman Rushdie "Poetry is not a turning loose of emotion, but an escape from emotion; it is not the expression of personality, but an escape from personality. But, of course, only those who have personality and emotions know what it means to want to escape from these things." T.S. Eliot As for producing a non-poem, again, posting one (as I did earlier, my own darling creation there) is merely another means of drawing a loose perimeter around a subjective view. I do not think what I wrote up there was a poem. I dashed it off without a thought to meaning and parts of it are no more than random keystrokes. It presents flashes of languages, but it does not use language in any meaningful way. And while the reader is part of the experience, the reader would have to be the entire experience to say that was a poem... and I reject that, just as surely as I would reject someone telling me a tire iron was a poem. I don't consider that piece... was it a WCW piece on one of the other threads? That garbled stew of letters that was supposed to represent a cat... I don't consider that to be a poem. Even if the author says it is. I am certainly willing to call it art, but not poetry. It is not something you can read... it's strictly iconic, and that makes it part of the visual arts, perhaps, but not poetry. We've gone over what does make a poem ad infinitum with a measure of success in determining subjective values, at the very least. So I won't rehash all that. I still side with the importance of attempting to define poetry even if we realize it is an endeavor whose fruits will change shape and size from time to time, fruits we will reach for much like Tantalus and his grapes. We, perhaps, enjoy the efforts more than our man in Hades. ;) | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 582 Registered: 03-2008 |
"How do you know you've written one?" Now this is turning into a philosophical discussion. We're getting off track a little. I find it hard to believe that ANYONE could write a poem without going into it knowing they're writing a poem. It isn't as if you could just sit down and BAM a poem pops out. I wish it were that way, but it just ain't. Seems to me that when a poem is written, someone has set out TO write a poem. That's how you know you've written one. It is there. | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1181 Registered: 10-2005 |
"We're getting off track a little." I don't think so, and your point is exactly mine. The person who writes a poem believes it to be such... but how that person knows is the way that person defines the term. It is necessarily philosophical, as philosophy is part and parcel of the definition, as we are talking about some combination of language, aesthetics, metaphor, and so forth. | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 583 Registered: 03-2008 |
"How that person knows is the way that person defines the term." Cmon. Seriously? How does someone "know" they've written a poem? I can't imagine that the way I set about to write a poem is much different from the way others do. I sit down with a pen and a piece of paper and I write a poem. Do other people do it differently? Are you trying to suggest that people suddenly pop up with poetry? I just can't imagine a scenario in which someone doesn't know that they're writing or making poetry. "Well, I sat down to make a grocery list, and out came this thing . . . I'm not sure what it is. Well, let's see . . . here's some slant rhyme, and every now and then a weird image pops up . . . maybe this is a recipe for chicken spaghetti!" | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 930 Registered: 07-2006 |
W.F. By contrast though, I occassionally sit down to write a poem and after having typed/scribbled for an hour or so have had . . . less than poetry to show for it. Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1182 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi W.F., Yes, seriously. And no, there is no implication that people "pop up" with poetry. And how do I know I've written a poem? For starters, it's not a splotch of paint on my paper. And I have not cut the paper into a snowflake. So "Cmon" yourself. You know there's a "how" to writing poetry, too. You just don't want to wade in and risk saying so. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27052 Registered: 07-2001 |
Good discussion, even sans quotes and samples. Quality - good/bad/average - is not part of the definition. Kathy, your angst/cliche riddled early poems might be bad, but are still poems - even if best burned. (And btw, I've written the worse ever and it rhymed.) Brenda, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada is a good place to start. At the end is a set of links of which http://www.dmoz.org/Arts/Art_History/Periods_and_Movements/Dada// seems the best. Remember Google and Wiki work. Jeff, you set out to not write a poem, which in some French schools means you have. But if you gave each of those lines a meaning, how would we know you did not. Laz, great koan, but it is understandable. Grin. Jeff, the cat poem is in Take 2 and is from a poem, Paterson, by WCW wich includes sections of prose, sometimes head-scratching prose. The cat is by cummings. The very act of making a poem makes one an artist. I love that thought, but sadly partly disagree. It might only make the author a craftsman, the craft not yet rising to art. Is a kindergarten fingerpaint art? Is a paint-by-number. If I set out to draw and come up with something like the picture in my bio, it it art? Is that pic, by a second grader and grandson, art? http://www.mindfirerenew.com/issue2/0204-bap.html takes you to a review of Best of American Poetry 2004 I did for my old zine MindFire. The review is critical of the poetry selections because so many are experimental. I did not say none were not poetry, but that voice was not given its due in this graphic laden selection. There is one reason for this discussion: To keep the tent as large as possible, not sending the old styles or even the middle-aged out the door in the interest of experimentation and revolution. Will, you have poetry. It is only incomplete or perhaps unreadable. Signing off to do chores. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 7090 Registered: 08-2003 |
Only my poetry is real poetry. The rest are imitations.  Word Walker Press; Moonday Poetry; Kyoto Journal | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27053 Registered: 07-2001 |
Honesty, but do we need such or euphamisim and obfuscation? Smiles and grins. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 5393 Registered: 05-2006 |
.. (Message edited by sandiegopoet on January 29, 2009) From Bambi: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." From me: "Even consciousness, a pastiche of recycled cans." | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27066 Registered: 07-2001 |
Fred, I feel the same way about the first chapter of Grapes of Wrath. The work is so poetic and the author so talented, he (or in your case her) had to be thinking at some level - this is poetic, this is poetry. But does anyone ever write a poem as we normally define one (don't you love that) - that is in a S like form without knowing they are doing poetry? Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| W.F. Roby
Intermediate Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 584 Registered: 03-2008 |
I think I should remove myself from this conversation. Really, I find it disappointing that so many of you are willing to differentiate between "art" and "craft". The real world is nothing like a poetry workshop. | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1184 Registered: 10-2005 |
If you are going to be condescending, feel free to remove yourself. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 33060 Registered: 11-1998 |
Jeffrey -- being condescending in order to convince someone else to stop being condescending is like going to war for peace. Can you say "incongruous?" *sheesh! You guys drive me nuts* Love, M | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27087 Registered: 07-2001 |
WF, you may be right. But this is a workshop where many of us hope to learn how to do this thing we do better, and that does require improving the craft to find the art. But to differentiate: Craft is learned. Art strikes. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Patricia A. Marsh
Valued Member Username: patricia Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2007 |
Art strikes for higher wages, shorter working hours and longer coffee breaks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..>. .  | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27090 Registered: 07-2001 |
Art is going to join the unemployeed - and find he has no benefits - if Art continues with such behavior. And Muse will smack him around a bit - if she is not on the picket line herself. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Jeffrey S. Lange
Advanced Member Username: runatyr Post Number: 1185 Registered: 10-2005 |
It's just fighting fire with fire. It's one of my hobbies. ;) Ok, I won't make condescending remarks about condescension. I'm not really sorry about it, though... except for the driving you nuts part. But I won't do it again. (Am I on time out?) Yeah, all said, I think I am getting something of a spinning wheels feeling in here myself. Maybe I should go take a look at the "real world" since I apparently live in a delusional world. | ||
| brenda morisse
Senior Member Username: moritric Post Number: 3038 Registered: 04-2007 |
One demands two things of a poem. Firstly, it must be a well-made verbal object that does honor to the language in which it is written. Secondly, it must say something significant about a reality common to us all, but perceived from a unique perspective. What the poet says has never been said before, but, once he has said it, his readers recognize its validity for themselves. - W. H. Auden | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27093 Registered: 07-2001 |
Brtenda, a great quote. A bit high-faluten' for this country boy, who thinks sometimes just insignificant silly is best. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 933 Registered: 07-2006 |
At last I have an example. I would say the following falls short of being a poem. Thoughts? Industrial Before we came to think, when that word was spoken, of a building housing hundreds of people—greasy, interchangeable; or a collection of similar endeavors, product cluster pursued en masse; before its great revolution, we used to think, hearing that word, of an individual, one given to industry. Before thousands engaged in just one their whole lives, a man would, of necessity, pursue dozens every day, hundreds each year. A woman moving rocks from the field is an industry. A man cursing woolens as he darns them, an industry. A garden meant for food. The mowing of grasses for use beyond the cosmetic. All industry. But today, work is a place we go bereft its satisfaction, for others not ourselves. A meaning, it is for sale. Who then is not a prostitute? Who eats only what she has grown or caught and killed, has built his own abode, dipped her every drink from lake or stream? Who has not sacrificed his life because he is too busy? . Walk carefully-- your shoe is what you shine your shadow with. ~Jessica Goodfellow | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 27124 Registered: 07-2001 |
Will, is it not poetry, or is it imcomplete poetry - a poem that still needs some work? hundreds each year. A woman moving rocks from the field is an industry. A man cursing woolens as he darns them, an industry. A garden meant for food. The mowing of grasses for use beyond the cosmetic. All industry. contains some music, a rhythm - two of the traits of poetry. The first S is at least as poetic as much of what is posted on this and other forums daily - which might beg the question: Are we here and those in other places not penning poems? But I do not want to go there. A meaning, it is for sale. Who then is not a prostitute? Who eats only what she has grown or caught and killed, has built his own abode, dipped her every drink from lake or stream? Who has not sacrificed his life because he is too busy? also has some music et al, albeit there are prosey lines in the piece. I sniff a hint of Walt. But what are your reasons for saying this is not a poem? And who wrote it? I hope not you, for I had wished to avoid using poems by Wild members in this thread. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm |
