| Author | Message | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30221 Registered: 11-1998 |
. Dearest Membership -- I recently purchased a book published in 2008 that I've been finding very useful for constructing and organizing the weekly Creativity Challenges here on Wild. It's called The Mind's Eye: A Guide to Writing Poetry, by Kevin Clark. Mr. Clark is a winner of the Distinguished Teaching Award, is a university professor at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, and a widely published poet. This book on the teaching of poetry writing is concise, practical, and has been designed specifically for a college-level term. It includes a progression of lessons, example poems, and stimulating exercises. It also includes something Mr. Clark has christened the Poet's Note Card. These handy blurbs summarize the basic lessons of each chapter. After reading them, I realized that they are good summations and very handy reminders of what we poets should keep in the backs of our minds as we write. While most of the beginning ones are rather elementary and most advanced poets know these things, it doesn't hurt to review them. Or to learn them if you are a beginner to the craft of poetry making. And so, I am posting the first Poet's Note Card in the hopes that it will be of some benefit, mostly to beginners and even, in some instances, to those of us who have been writing poetry for awhile. I'll try to bring you a Poet's Note Card every so often. While you might not agree with every point Mr. Clark makes, I do hope these note cards serve to help those who are new to poetry by providing some basic foundation of information on which to build. Oh, and I do recommend that you acquire the book. It's an excellent textbook, especially if you would like to attend a college-level poetry writing course, but cannot for whatever reason. The link above (click on the book's title) will take you to the WPF BookShop and the Amazon description of the book. Thanks for reading! Love, M (Administrator) ------------------------------------------------- The Poet's Note Card -- #1 from The Mind's Eye: A Guide to Writing Poetry by Kevin Clark Rules to Know Now and a Few to Break Later 1. Always try to create interesting images. 2. Use contemporary language. 3. Be sure there's a conflict in every poem. 4. Use concrete language. It is better than abstract language. Concrete language renders images in the mind's eye, while abstract language only renders ideas. 5. Remember that readers of literature are most often moved by images and stories that render meaning, rather than abstract words that simply contain ideas. 6. Remember that sentiment is honest, sentimentality is false. 7. Avoid cliches; like white noise, they distract. 8. Since you're concentrating on imagery first, consider avoiding end rhyme until you've had greater practice at wedding images to sound. 9. At the outset, it might be helpful to keep your lines to a maximum of twelve syllables so as to avoid sounding prosaic. 10. Give yourself enough time and a good place to write. . | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4049 Registered: 05-2006 |
I will try to avoid cliches like the plague. Unofficial Forum Pariah -- recent victim of alien abduction -- I'm running out of places to store the bodies. | ||
| GA Sunshine
Advanced Member Username: ga_sunshine Post Number: 1380 Registered: 06-2006 |
~M~ Thanks for this. Looking forward to the next. Fred - giggle *Hugs* GA | ||
| Laura Ring
Advanced Member Username: laura Post Number: 1066 Registered: 05-2007 |
M, this note card idea is great, and the book sounds fantastic. Somebody stop me from buying this, please. I'm weak-willed. Love, Laura | ||
| David C.
Intermediate Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 331 Registered: 07-2007 |
Happy to help, Laura. Don't buy it. That should do it. Cheers David | ||
| Laura Ring
Advanced Member Username: laura Post Number: 1067 Registered: 05-2007 |
Phew, that was close. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30224 Registered: 11-1998 |
Damn! I've been foiled again! *LOL* Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1205 Registered: 11-2007 |
im thinking, too, that #10 could even be amended to "learn to use the time you have, and learn to write anywhere." I see so many people who plan to 'be a writer' as soon as they have the time, and as soon as they have a study/office/space of their own. Hands up, now: how many people in here have written or revised poems in restaurants, in the hospital waiting room (or your own comfy hospital bed), at stop lights... | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4050 Registered: 05-2006 |
I wrote a poem at Grossmont Hospital about 15 months ago, while I was in the lobby, waiting for the nurse to come get me -- and then to have a colonoscopy done. * * * * * I write poems in restaurants all the time. The American Association of No-Nonsense Waitresses has me on their "watch list." * * * * * I write because I must. * * * * * Derf Unofficial Forum Pariah -- recent victim of alien abduction -- I'm running out of places to store the bodies. | ||
| Jane Røken
Advanced Member Username: magpie Post Number: 1493 Registered: 03-2007 |
I often write poems when I'm (supposed to be) writing other things. Once I wrote an entire poem, including endless revisions, while translating a (likewise endless) text on smallpox virus. Sometimes I jot down scraps of poems on grubby scraps of paper while messing about in the garden. Of course it can be done. Sometimes, doing it under "impossible" conditions may even add to the inspiration. In any case it helps sharpen the concentration. Quite often it's even fun. Jane | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1962 Registered: 04-2007 |
Sometimes, I like to look out the window. | ||
| Rania S. Watts
Intermediate Member Username: cementcoveredcherries Post Number: 533 Registered: 04-2008 |
Thanks M, Rania S. Watts "You will hardly know who I am or what I mean" ~ Walt Whitman Cement Covered Cherries | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30232 Registered: 11-1998 |
Ah, I think you can interpret that last pointer any way you wish, Judy. What's enough time? What's a good place to write? I think five minutes in the middle of a busy restaurant counts as much as an entire uninterrupted week in your own little office. Depends on how you use it, eh? Some of what I think are my best lines have come to me while I'm taking a shower. Have you ever tried to write on a bar of soap? It can be done, but it ain't easy. Slippery little sucker. *LOL* Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1206 Registered: 11-2007 |
i have written and revised while attached to an IV for a spider bite, i have revised something, anything, in fast food restaurants, cars, waiting rooms. Last year I started a poem on my way out to Iowa city to the writer's festival, and revised it one rest stop at a time. By the time I got there, it was nearly done. some of my best stuff surfaces at 80mph on the highway. sometimes i think saying "I dont have the time" is the excuse to not write. | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1964 Registered: 04-2007 |
Dearest M, mi hermana, this is great. Wow. Thank-you. The information is very helpful. A poet's mantra. Number 6 is one of my daily struggles. Sometimes, it is very difficult to know the difference between sentiment and sentimentality. I spend a lot of time considering that problem when i write. Sentimentality leaves an aftertaste of too much sugar. Wait a minute! What's wrorng with sugar? You know I love sweets, so that's not the problem. Really swinnka, what does sentimentality taste like?. love, love, borrachita (Message edited by moritric on June 07, 2008) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30233 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest borrachita -- sentimentality tastes like Satellite Wafer candies (AKA, flying saucers), made by the Gerrit J. Verburg Company in Fenton, MI 48430 (but really a product of Belgium). Satellite Wafers Oh, never mind -- I will just send you some. love, love, swinka | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4052 Registered: 05-2006 |
Damn. I was thinking of how, if you ride a horse in downtown Dallas at night, the authorities require you to have a lamp mounted on the side of the horn, but if you only are riding downtown under bright neons, sodiums and fluorescents they issue you an exemption certificate. Saddle Light Waivers * * * * * (Message edited by sandiegopoet on June 07, 2008) Unofficial Forum Pariah -- recent victim of alien abduction -- I'm running out of places to store the bodies. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30234 Registered: 11-1998 |
Damn. That was you on the horse in Dallas, Freddie? Your bright neon exemption certificate blinded me. Sorry. Didn't mean to spook the horse. Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 3402 Registered: 10-2005 |
M~ These were great. Keep em coming. Hopefully I can buy the book soon. I think number 3 is interesting and hard to do. There is usually a conflict in my mind, but it can be hard to get it into the poem. -Laz | ||
| David C.
Intermediate Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 332 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'd like a stewards' enquiry on no. 3. A conflict in every poem? Really? I wandered lonely as a cloud - oh no I didn't ... Death be not proud - oh go on then ... I don't think that one works. Some poems can just be pure affirmation. Or negation, if you're that way inclined. | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1965 Registered: 04-2007 |
I've never thought about the conflict in my poems. This is intriguing. Does the conflict serve as a tension in the poem? I think that alliteration would propel the conflict. Or do i have it all wrong? Also i think if there is conflict, I might be tempted to resolve the problem, then the poem sinks. Perhaps conflicts make themselves at home in my poems without an invitation. I think it's important to just write. If you don't write all the conflicts in the world won't make a poem. Or maybe they would. A conflict poem. Hmm. I write and write and write, I guess stream of consciousness, I hardly ever begin a poem at the beginning. It usually begins at the end of my writing. Then I go back and pick out words that I like, sometimes a line or two and then write some more. Now I'm very conflicted. about conflict. Is this the beginning? | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30235 Registered: 11-1998 |
From The Mind's Eye: A Guide to Writing Poetry by Kevin Clark On Conflict: "Because we want our poems to register that distinct rippling effect, we need to remember that impact relies on conflict, which is the existence of opposing forces inside a human being. If the life of Emily Dickinson's narrator is as dangerous as a loaded gun, we know there's something wrong with that life. We understand that the narrator is "conflicted." Poetry thrives on tension, and tension arises from the problems of the human heart. As we'll see in Chapter Twelve, Norman Dubie's poem "Radio Sky" depicts a married couple troubled by their infertility. Unable to sleep, they turn on the televison "to where a station had just signed off." The "snow" they see on the screen appears to be "the original light of Creation. Genesis popping like corn in a black room." Dubie renders the conflict the man and the wife experience by creating that wondrously idiosyncratic image. Some poets may be tempted to prettify the situation, to sentimentalize the couple. But good honest feeling is usually gritty, not sweet and soft. We write poetry to communicate with adults, not children. As Frost suggested, we write to discover what we didn't know we knew. Good poetry is for adults. That's why serious poetry written in a childish voice is frequently unsuccessful. It's not frank; it's been sanitized." "At the center of all good literature is some conflict of the human heart. As the great American novelist William Faulkner famously said, only "the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself . . . can make good writing." . . . As writers we may hope that people can change for the better, that they can eliminate personal conflict, that they can transform themselves into something emotionally richer and healthier. But we can't know what any protagonist will do until we start writing -- and then we must be true to that character. Some protagonists will change for the better; others will fail; yet others will fight their demons to a draw . . . Poems are fueled by tension . . . The protagonist faces some kind of impediment to happiness. Virtually all protagonists are flawed, as are all human beings." I would also recommend thinking about novels. A central and required plot device is conflict. Without conflict (uneasy or dangerous situations in which the main character or subcharacters find themselves, evil characters, some internal or external situation that seeks resolution, the life problems inherent in being human and human concerns, questions in the mind about the experiences of living, etc.), a novel would be rather boring. The same applies to any literature. Poetry is no different. The conflict doesn't necessarily need to be resolved, to the author's, reader's or even the character's satisfaction. But if no conflict exists, why write about the situation? Humans need some kind of drama or conflicted experience to consider and turn over in the mind or there is little impact to the piece. Readers crave human drama of all kinds. Love, M | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1207 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think I get this, finally. Sometimes the conflict isnt as clear cut as a crime, a fight, a strong 'yes/no" WITHIN the poem, the conflict can also be from outside, belonging to the narrator, the writer, the reader. You can tap into a reader's conflicts with the right words, which explains why some poems are so apparently banal on the surface but open doors for a reader. Our own conflicts enter into it, as well. Lost love, choices, a parent dying, the loss of innocence or pride... | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1967 Registered: 04-2007 |
yes, dearest M, and Judy. Can conflict be delivered as contrast? How red vibrates against green. Love, the backdrop of indifference. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30236 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks, Judy. Well said. Yes, borrachita -- conflict is contrast. Red vibrating against green. Love vibrating against indifference. In fact, red vibrating against green can be a metaphor or a symbol of love vibrating against indifference. If there is no conflict, no contrast, the poem will be boring. Even if you are writing about someone eating a bowl of oatmeal, it's better if there's something floating in the oatmeal that calls questions into the character's and reader's minds -- those are the raisins. Life questions are raisins -- what is life all about as I am eating this oatmeal? Why am I sitting here with this bowl of oatmeal? Why is this oatmeal making me unhappy? Why are there raisins floating in my oatmeal? I hate raisins. Who put raisins in my oatmeal? That is conflict. Good literature explores that. Love, M | ||
| Laura Ring
Advanced Member Username: laura Post Number: 1071 Registered: 05-2007 |
This is a great discussion. To me, this is about the "so what" factor: ooh, a neat image. So what? That said, I remember reading an interview with a famous children's author (L'Engle? Yolen? Argh! Can't recall) where she specifically addressed this issue. Her perspective was, it's not that every good story requires "conflict," but it does require "change." Something to ponder. Best, Laura | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30237 Registered: 11-1998 |
Thanks for adding to the discussion, Laura. I think this children's author was simply putting a different, softer spin on conflict by calling it change. Which is not surprising since he/she is a children's author. However, even children's literature must revolve around conflict or change. Children's conflicts/changes are smaller (going through puberty, being bullied at school, sibling rivalry, etc.), but there is still some conflict/change at the center of the story. Most children's literature provides resolution to that conflict or change, usually something positive in the end. But that's because children's literature is designed to teach as well as to entertain. Not all adult literature needs conflict resolution, but it does need conflict. Characters experiencing those moment of questioning, transformation, being at the crossroads of life decisions. Whether that is called conflict or change doesn't really matter. There still must be something with tension and drama to it. Or the piece will not capture and hold a reader's attention. Conflict/change is the central point (like the sun) around which everything else revolves. Love, M | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1968 Registered: 04-2007 |
Dear Laura, so, some kind of evolution. that makes sense. Maybe M should dip her raisins in cholcolate, then, she might like them because the flavor of anything dipped in cholcolate is much improved. Well, maybe not anything. Or maybe she'd still hate them and they'd melt all over the oatmeal and it would turn brown and then she'd hate oatmeal, raisins and chocolate. then breakfast would become unappetizing, and lunch would remind her of breakfast and raisins or maybe chocolate, and then my poor hermana might never eat again. Oh dear. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30238 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest borrachita -- the last thing you need to worry about is making sure you have conflict in your poems. There is not one poem by you that I have ever read that is not filled to the brim with good conflict. Go back and look at the St. Pauli girl. One conflict after another for that poor girl. Even your comments have conflict -- oatmeal turning brown, breakfast becoming unappetizing, poor hermana never eating again. Borrachita -- you are conflict. That is why we love you so much. I will sprinkle you liberally in every one of my poems. I should go back and change point #3 to read: "Be sure there's a borrachita in every poem." *grin* love, love, swinka | ||
| brenda morisse
Advanced Member Username: moritric Post Number: 1970 Registered: 04-2007 |
Dearest swinka, I'm working on a poem now, (I just posted it in CV) and it fails. Falls on its little head. Now I know why. There's no conflict. It's a list poem, and rather than pushing or even recognizing the contrasts, I have relied on the list to propel the poem. It's not enough. Wow, isn't it amazing how this kind of dialogue can enlighten. Now, i know where to begin the revision. Yippee! love, love borrachita with conflict on her mind (Message edited by moritric on June 08, 2008) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30239 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest borrachita -- I have not gone to read the poem yet, but I will. However, just because it is a list poem, that doesn't mean it doesn't also include some conflict of the human heart. It depends on what items you include on the list, hermana. Conflict is not always big and bold. For instance, a list that includes Smiley the corpse's wax lips could show conflict. We will think, why does a corpse need wax lips? Did someone rip these wax lips off his face? Why are they on this list? What happened to the rest of his face? What else is on this list? How will Smiley smile in the great pleasant feet beyond if he doesn't have his wax lips? Should I get a pair of wax lips too? Does a person need wax lips if she is not a corpse? See -- plenty of drama and conflict. If your list items are evocative and inspire thought, you don't have to worry. Conflict can be in what items are selected and how individual items play off other items in the list. love, love, swinka P.S. Well, I went to look for it, and it had already disappeared. So I removed its footprint as well. Please bring it back when you are finished working on it, borrachita. I'm sure everyone will want to see this one. I know I do. | ||
| David C.
Intermediate Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 333 Registered: 07-2007 |
Impressed by the arguments, but still not convinced. I'm not trying to be awkward - just to show that I'm paying attention. I'll give it some more thought, though. I might concede that all poems of a certain kind need to have conflict. Not all poems are, or should be, of that kind. Of course, if any one can point out to me the conflict in either of the poems I quoted, or (say) "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" or "As kingfishers catch fire", I shall concede defeat and retire gracefully from the lists. As it is, I humbly and politely but firmly maintain - no. 3 is, if not a false rule, not a universal one. (All the rest are fine and dandy.) Cheers David (Message edited by david_shay_mish on June 08, 2008) | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30240 Registered: 11-1998 |
Shall I Compare Thee To A Summer's Day? by William Shakespeare (1564-1616) Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, And summer's lease hath all too short a date. Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, And often is his gold complexion dimm'd; And every fair from fair sometime declines, By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd; But thy eternal summer shall not fade Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st; Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade, When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st: So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. There is plenty of "conflict" in this poem, David. The central conflict is spoken right in the first line with the question, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" The narrator is conflicted. He would like to compare his loved one to a summer's day (which is lovely), but she is more lovely than that. The balance of piece goes on to talk about why and how she is much, much more and different than a summer's day. He challenges our typical ideas of summer's loveliness. He shows how unlovely a summer’s day can be. How short summer is and how eternal his love and his loved one are. He's causing conflict within the reader who only thinks of summer in terms of its loveliness. He's showing there's a negative side to summer (too rough, too hot, too temporary). He's making us question our basic assumptions. There is life and there is death in this poem -- two huge topics just filled to the brim with conflict as far as humans are concerned. Not to mention love. And wanting to capture someone's essence for eternity and do it justice. His central conflict is how does he do that and do it well. Not even death can take away her loveliness and her fairness. He finally concludes that the poem itself will stand as testament to her because it will show just how much more lovely than a summer's day she is by showing how fickle summer is (too rough, too short, too hot, etc.). So we have resolution of his initial conflict. That's what the close of sonnets are -- resolution. You cannot have resolution if you do not have an initial conflict. I think the problem you are having is that you are defining "conflict" merely as it pertains to violence and war and battle and argument and aggression. Conflict can also be something over which we are conflicted -- confused, unsure. Something about which we feel we don't have all the answers. You can be conflicted about ice cream -- vanilla or chocolate? Conflicts range from minor to major, but every good piece of literature addresses some type and manor of conflict. Love, M | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9546 Registered: 07-2002 |
The word that works better for me is not conflict or change, but charge. Without that charge, that emotional jolt, a poem is simply a vivid description of something, but lack the completeness I look for in a poem. William Shakespeare - Sonnet #18 Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate: Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, And Summer's lease hath all too short a date: Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd; And every fair from fair sometime declines, By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd: But thy eternal Summer shall not fade Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest; Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade, When in eternal lines to time thou growest: So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. The charge here for me is the struggle to love in the face of endings. The Wordsworth poem is not one I have ever liked very much, but there is even some kind of charge here: For oft, when on my couch I lie In vacant or in pensive mood, They flash upon that inward eye Which is the bliss of solitude; And then my heart with pleasure fills, And dances with the daffodils. There is the contract between the narrator's sense of alienation and the peace given by the daffodils. I would argue that without that final stanza, this would not really *be* a poem. best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 4058 Registered: 05-2006 |
Being a person who is often willing to take a stand, when 1,476,277,619 persons (more or less) have a diametrically opposed POV, it may seem odd that I take issue with the word conflict. There is a bellicose, possibly even incendiary or violent, connotation that has taken residence around the word conflict in recent years. I agree that conflict has other, more moderate meanings, but I don't think that the word easily relinquishes these more-valenced meanings. In novels, I like hard-core conflict, preferring works by Sue Grafton, Lee Child, Michael Connelly, Dean Koontz, and Tony Hillerman . . . but in poetry I think that Clark's other word tension is sufficient. I like Lisa's word charge. I might change this to charge and discharge, and add that when asked what makes a good story I will usually say "tension and resolution in a context of character." But I'm not convinced that a good poem needs as much discharge or resolution as a good story. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah -- recent victim of alien abduction -- I'm running out of places to store the bodies. | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Advanced Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 2260 Registered: 05-2007 |
Read conflict as tension, or evocative, perhaps? Not necessarily bellicose, aggressive. Thanks for posting, ~M~. Good discussion. Books about writing are intended as suggestions, nothing more, nothing less. Techniques for writing are as unique as the writer and the reader - but certain guidelines are helpful. That is, if you'd like to be read, potentially published and taken seriously. Then you can mess with the more "experimental" stuff like Derf does. HIs alien influences are fascinating, with or without the translation.  Best, T. "All living beings on earth are our neighbors." -Albert Schweitzer | ||
| David C.
Intermediate Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 335 Registered: 07-2007 |
I could go for tension. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 30243 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest All -- thank you for your various opinions. You all make me smile with satisfaction. You are all very strong people, very strong writers, and have equally strong opinions. This is a very good thing. I enjoy how you question things, never taking them at face value. Always contemplating, always measuring and weighing. This is wonderful. When it comes right down to it, we are debating semantics, which is fine. Call this concept what you wish -- conflict, charge, tension, discharge. What matters is the incorporation of the concept, not what we call it. The term conflict is not new, nor is it something that Mr. Clark coined as it regards literature. That term has been used for decades in describing this concept. You will most likely see it in many instructional manuals that teach the art of fiction writing (novels, short stories, poetry, etc.), and hear it in classes that offer the same. Conflict and conflict resolution are the standard terms applied to this area of plot development. And please don't make the mistake of thinking that "plot development" does not apply to poetry. It does. Every good piece of literature, poetry included, revolves around some kind of plot. As I said, it matters less what you call it. Feel free to think of it and call it what you wish. What is ultimately important is that your poems contain it. And I think if you go back and review your successful poems, you will find that each of you writes poems that contain plenty of conflicts of the human heart. I know I find excellent examples of it in your work and it is among your greatest strengths as writers. Love, M |
