| Author | Message | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9193 Registered: 07-2002 |
I've been interested in Wild's growth over the past few years, as it's clear that our membership has increased and has become more prolific judging by the number of new poems posted each week. (Better than 85 in CV alone). I took a random week and counted how many new poems were posted in CV, then counted how many comments each of those poems received. The numbers are interesting. For the 7 days beginning Friday, March 28th, 85 new poems were posted in CV. Those poems received an average of 8 comments, with the range somewhere between 1 and 22. Now I recognize that many of those comments are from the original poster and some posts are non-crit cross talk as well. Those 85 poems represent the work of about 40 poets. While Wild doesn't have hard and fast rules about participation and number of crits per poem posted (that would be a statistical and oversight nightmare and I know none of the moderators want to be enforcers!), I do believe that spending time with another poet's work and analyzing what works for you as a reader and what doesn't is vital for growth. I would encourage those of you who feel unsure about offering critique to think about the kinds of commentary you would like on your work and simply start by commenting on one specific thing (word/phrase/poetic device, etc) in someone else's work. I'd appreciate your thoughts, etc. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Ros Badcoe
Member Username: endolith Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2008 |
I think any site like this will tend to attract some who will stick a poem on, do no crits and then disappear. I suppose you could do some analysis of the stats and see who is doing most of the crits - I've only posted a few poems so far, but I've read a lot and I do recognise the same names coming round a lot. I certainly try to comment any time I feel I have something to say - even if I'm not always close to the mark, it does make me learn and the poet can always ignore me. Perhaps you could encourage people to post a couple of short crits/comments before posting their first poem. They would then get a feel for the site and it might make for a bit more commitment. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23320 Registered: 07-2001 |
Lisa, good post. I wish for every poem to get at least three comments - one solid suggestions - and for every poster to be thanked for their time and effort... Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3701 Registered: 05-2006 |
What I find troubling is that many poets do not seem to want a response, however brief, in the spirit of literary criticism. They seem to want something like "Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman, Wallace Stevens, Mary Oliver . . . and now YOU." They respond well to my witty posts in their threads, but if I make a serious and authentic response to their poems they either ignore me or (assuming that anything other than hearty applause is a snipe on my part) they elect to snipe back. Perhaps a forum is needed just called "Poetry to Share." Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8347 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lisa, I've noticed the increase in posts too, esp. after being gone from Wild for a few days on occasion, I've even counted them myself. One long weekend I was gone, there were 64 new poems posted in CV in 36 hours. It is nice if each post in CV receives minor crit, and something constructive along the way. It is also nice to see the author continue to work on the poem once the crit is received, not necessarily in accordance with the suggestions made, but its just nice to see the progression. It's almost like a thank you. I have learned so much here through analyzing other's work and having mine analyzed. The comments/suggestions don't have to be filled with technical terms or major revision suggestions to help the poet. I think some people come just to read, some just to post their work and be encouraged, and others to learn. I wish I had some suggestions on how to slow the number of posts in CV each day so everyone would get equal numbers of comments/crit, and so poems would have time to be worked on by the poet before they fall so quickly down the board, but I don't. I'm not sure anything to slow things down would be easily enforceable. I would like to see more people who want to work on their poems, or want more in depth analysis to post them either in Sublux or Biofeedback, depending on what level of suggestion they are looking for and what level of crit they are comfortable with. That might slow CV down some. *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3705 Registered: 05-2006 |
Kathy wrote: "I wish I had some suggestions on how to slow the number of posts in CV each day so everyone would get equal numbers of comments/crit, and so poems would have time to be worked on by the poet before they fall so quickly down the board, but I don't. I'm not sure anything to slow things down would be easily enforceable." * * * * * The standard model for solving this problem is a traffic management one. You can -- (1) increase the number of roads that cars drive down so that the number of cars per road is reduced; (2) post speed limit signs. The latter of course requires enforcement -- your point, but the former only requires that one or two additional forums be created. A casual survey of the posts at CV suggests that about a third could reasonably be posted in a forum called "Poems to Share." Your suggestion that more poems go to Biofeedback and Subluxation is a good one. This can be viewed as better utilization of roads currently underutilized. Perhaps improved "Gating Commentary" would be in order. I think that the cutsie comments at the top of each forum which follow the new-age holistic medicine theme might be edited down and in their place text inserted with the intent of steering more poems into Sublux or Bio. Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| David C.
Valued Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 108 Registered: 07-2007 |
Rather than attempt to categorise posts by the type of critique they will receive, you could do so by reference to the experience of the poster, i.e. beginners / experienced. I'd just go for those two, as, although I'm fairly experienced, I feel the bar has been set too high in your Bio section. Not that the postings there are better than in CV - I don't think they are, on the whole - but that it appears that too much expectation may be attached to what goes there. I don't feel inclined to post comments on the poems in Bio, as I don't like to feel that a certain sort of painstaking, nitpicking response is required. As someone else (it may have been M, it often is) said a little while back, a propos of this sort of thing, I'll respond briefly or at length, depending on how the poem moves me. I agree with lj on the whole, though - the critical responses sometimes seem to be there purely as a token gesture towards getting a response on your own poem. I don't measure "quality" by length, by the way, but by incisiveness. A good snappy short response seems more valuable to me than a load of flim flam (although both are certainly far more valuable than a superficial short response). I seem to have rambled on at length, Sorry about that. Them's just my thoughts, anyway. David | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8357 Registered: 12-2003 |
David, we do categorize posts by experience of the poster, Sublux being for the beginner, CV for the intermediate, and Biofeedback for the advanced. Each level does require a bit different type of critique. If I offered the type of Crit in Sublux that I offer in Bio, I'm pretty sure I'd scare everyone away. It is not the purpose of Bio to make one feel they need to offer a painstaking, nitpicking response. Every one offers a different type of critique there, some mechanics, some in-line, and some just comments, some discussion just helps you look at your poem in a different way. Bio offers a slower pace and more back and forth about the poem, sometimes just a quick response, sometimes not. I find that it allows for more discussion of the poem, and more time for thought and revision before it falls down the board. I'm speaking as one who until recently avoided Bio because I was uncomfortable with the level of crit offered. Now I find CV moves too fast and I'm not getting the kind of feedback I would like there. Each person is going to post where they are most comfortable, and where they find the type of crit they want to receive and to give. *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1059 Registered: 11-2007 |
I agree with Fred, some poets seem to post what I think of as "vanity" posts, where their main interest is to be told how good they are. Any constructive crits are considered to be insulting and "I LIKE it this way" which leaves me wondering, why bother? So I don't. I leave my energies for people who want (as I do) serious comments, suggestions, ideas. The very best work I do often comes from someone's not-quite-on-the-money idea, but it will often spark something of my own, better than what I had, better than what was suggested. Most of what I bring here to be worked on is as finished as I can make it, and has gone through as many drafts as I can muster up, so it's usually posted in Bio for a final scrub. I can't imagine slapping together a poem and posting it raw. But that's my way, not someone else's. | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 29 Registered: 03-2008 |
based on a quick count in bio on average the first 25 poems on the page got 9 responses, ranging between 1 and 32 the 32 responses were quite exceptional, if you leave that poem out of the equation you get 8 responses on average, ranging between 1 and 21 not much difference with cv there roughly 40% of all the poems posted there had 4 or less comments less than 5% had 20 or more i would say the people who post in bio are just slower than your average member, given that i don't see much difference in type of poetry or comment between it and cv !l. | ||
| David C.
Valued Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 109 Registered: 07-2007 |
Kathy, re "David, we do categorize posts by experience of the poster, Sublux being for the beginner, CV for the intermediate, and Biofeedback for the advanced." Hmm. That's not how it comes across to me, but it's interesting that that is how it is supposed to be. So there's a qualitative difference in the posters? Not that I've noticed. People seem to post in CV and Bio fairly promiscuously, (or indiscriminately, if you prefer) which is fine and dandy. I still don't get the logic of it, but don't get me wrong - this is a great site, and I like it. However you want to organise it is okay by me. I'll keep knocking around. I'll shut up now. | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9195 Registered: 07-2002 |
I appreciate everyone's comments on this. The splitting of the main posting forums (fora?) into BFB (heavy crit) and CV (light crit) is a relatively new structure. It has taken most of the past 6-12 months for folks to get a sense of what BFB has to offer and I am now seeing a strong upsurge in participation there. What I love about Wild is that there is something for poets at all developmental levels, and I wouldn't want that to change. That is one of our core missions. One of the things that is important to me is that community and reciprocity guide our continued growth. All of the admins/mods type our fingers to the bone because we love Wild and want to see her flourish. We try to encourage increased participation and cross-fertilization of ideas but none of us want to be post-counting cops. I have no other agenda here than to start a conversation and get folks thinking about what participation means to them. As far as linus' comment: "i don't see much difference in type of poetry or comment between it and cv", I would have to disagree. There may not be that much difference in response amount, but I would daresay that the depth of critique is far different. You can compare my crits in BFB to my commentary in CV to see a large difference. As a rule, I don't do in depth commentary or much in-line work in CV, unless the poster is someone with whom I've had an ongoing poetic dialogue. And I'm likely only going to offer in-depth critique to poems in BFB going forward as a way to entice more participation there. Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| KA
Intermediate Member Username: kerryann Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just my opinion:[which may have already been stated, or is already known by everyone... I am redundant.] Most people post in CV because that seems to be the default forum that everyone visits. Seeing as everyone visits that forum much more frequently than any other, it would only make sense to post poems there in order to garner more feedback, more comments, more reads. Yes, the feedback given in Bio is more in depth, but there aren't very many people who would venture a lengthy response. In CV you can get away with a two or three line response, "and be done with it." Some people post a poem and then doubleback to the first three or four poems off the top and respond to those in the hopes of getting responses to their poems. These are just my observations. Lord knows I haven't posted a poem in eons, but I'm still here. KA *is a hovercraft* | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29334 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest All -- as I see it, Wild has the right number of forums. You want to know why most people post in CV? Because that's where most people hang out and where everyone believes (rightly so most times) that their work will get the most attention. We could open dozens of forums here at Wild and the majority would still cling to where most of the people hang out. Anybody who's ever hosted a party and found all the guests congregated in the kitchen knows this is true. What's wrong with the living room? Isn't the couch more comfortable? Doesn't matter -- that's not where the food and the people are. *smile* We have a lot of signs and information posted around here. Nobody reads them. They just do what they want or what works. Sis used to laugh as Admin here in our prior years -- she said we could post info with big, blinking lights and nude models, and people still wouldn't read it. After ten years of working here, I'd have to agree with her. That's OK, anyway. The instructions on where to post are simply guidelines, nothing more. Too many rules and people start to get uncomfortable. They stop enjoying themselves because they feel their every move is being monitored and watched. That they are being herded around like cattle. If things get a little messy around here, that's just the cost of doing pleasurable business. And we mods usually move what is terribly out of place. What I'm more concerned about is people who post numerous poems in a day. That doesn't give any of us the time to respond properly and give the work the attention it deserves (no matter where it is). The poets are really hurting themselves when they do that. The insightful ones learn that lesson and stop posting at high levels. They space it out more, as we recommend. Which BTW, we do talk about in WPF FAQ's. There's a note right on the top of the main forums page that people should read the FAQs. They also get told this when they receive their activation letter on signing up for membership. PLEASE READ THE FAQS! Do they read our helpful pointers? No. This is the way it's always been and always will be. In my opinion, we don't need more forums or more information (we're bursting at the seams already). We just need to accept that people will be people. Rigid rules and categorizations are great in theory only. This is the real world. We do the best we can. One helpful step would be to post your wishes about critique in your profiles. Another would be to read each other's profiles to find out what level of crit is preferred and adhere to that member's wishes. Do I have any hope that people will do this? No, of course not. I already know that most people don't listen to a damn thing I say. *LOL* Love, M | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 541 Registered: 07-2006 |
Just so you know, I read them all when I first came, and do so again every now and then. Yes, I am a loser with nothing better to do, but I do post in accordance with the rules.  I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant | ||
| linus
New member Username: linus Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2008 |
i just had a swell idea, maybe this place could do with a faq that sort of recommends how to go about this place. it could be linked atop all the pages and maybe even send in the confirmation email when people register just an idea off course !l. | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29335 Registered: 11-1998 |
What I'd really like to do is limit you all to one poem per week, per forum. That's right -- ONE. That would give you all the time you should take to work on the piece and us the time we need to respond thoughtfully to it so we could all work together to make it as close to perfect as possible. You think anybody would like that rule? Hell, no! There'd be a total mutiny and I'd get hanged from the highest yardarm. *LMAO* So, I'll ask nice like. Please slow down. Wild's not going anywhere. Take your time. Relax. Here -- have some dip. And for god's sake -- go make yourself comfortable on the couch in the living room.  Love, M | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23324 Registered: 07-2001 |
is there popcorn and is the coffee hot? Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9196 Registered: 07-2002 |
You bet, Gary.  And if you're lucky, you'll be in time for some bread hot out of the oven. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8358 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'd like to see a slow down too. Lisa said it: admin/mods type our fingers to the bone. Interestingly, when I first came to Wild, 4-5 years ago now, CV was more like Bio. We also did not have the membership we have now and things moved slower. Not as many posts, more attention to the poem. I'll bring homemade strawberry jam for the bread, or if you prefer, apple butter! * Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 2161 Registered: 01-2003 |
A note of caution Be careful when a group starts wishing for conformity. We don't want wild to be a homogeneous experience, that is, we don't want people to feel like it's a 'rule' to post comments on other work. If they want their wild experience to be to post a poem and that's it , then so be it. We have never been a place that enforced any kind of comment to poem ratio and don't intend to be in the future. Now, the result of that is yes, the board moves faster as we get more popular and get more members, and as Fred put so well, you either widen the freeway or restrict the traffic. Perhaps something along the lines of building a light rail, hmm. M and I will talk more on this and post further discussions warmly s | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23325 Registered: 07-2001 |
apple butter, but I will bring wild mountain blueberry jam and we will see who goes awary with the empty jar... Restrict nothing... I got my start moderating on a board where we bragged - no fences, no rules. Sadly, a moderator and a couple of members got off their meds and blow-ups later it was passworded and all the staff was fired... We need rules and fences, but I miss the Old West. but will settle for Wild... Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| nia sunset
Advanced Member Username: nia Post Number: 1270 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hi Lisa, and Hi Wild Poetry Poets, It has been for two years that I met with Wild Poetry. But actually my activities have been maybe for a few months, (or less than one year.)I think I explained before, I do love poetry and also English language so much. yes, this is not my own language and maybe I am different because of this, because as you know, it is not easy to translate a poem, (but I began to write in English too now) Anyway, Before posting a poem, to read and to walk through with others' poetries are much more important for me, as if I am reading poetry books of you all, you are all so nice poets, and reading of your poems are so nice and so enjoyable. THANK YOU for this, when I ask to myself what is poetry, I can find the answer by reading your beautiful poems. I don't have a critical and technical way in my reading for to share my comments, no, exactly I don't have. I just try to read a poem and to share what makes me to think or to feel... that's all what I can do. At the begining to be honest I was reading all new posted poems and also I was giving my comments for all of them. But later, to catch the board (by the way I am talking only about CV, because I have been mostly there) became everyday much more hard because IT HAS BEEN POSTED SO fastly, it was really a great number of new posted poems for a day! On the other hand, let me say this too, I hesitate to give my comment especially for who I have not meet before, I am not feel good to find a preconceived ideas before my poetry, but of course a poem can be misunderstood or even I can be misunderstood, anyway, I tried to share my thoughts, my contribution for this site, for this beautiful poetry people, can it be good or nice, I don't know but please be sure, I try to share with all my heart, and with my good faith. There are so beautiful poet friends here, and they encourage and support me, I am so grateful for their beautiful comments that each of them are great help for my improving language and English poetry, but also I should thank once again all these beautiful poets, because of sharing their poetical voyages, they are all great inspiration too. with my love, nia  http://www.freewebs.com/butterflywingsofnia/ "Carry the beauties;wash the badnesses with your poetical spirit" | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2007 |
Gary, it's the "meds' line that makes me giggle. And knowing a bit about where you and I used to hang out, frankly I can't decide which one that might have been. Some rules (or maybe heavy suggesting) and some fences of the low variety, at least as a guide of sorts. The only restriction I can see would be, if you double or triple post on the same day the last two will be gently removed and you can add them back in a week or so. My own personal rule is, post one, let it work its way through the crit cycle, and when that peters out, maybe post another if I have one waiting. As ~M~ just said, why hurry? Wild isnt going anywhere...and there is no contest to see who can post the most... Have you considered taking on more moderators? | ||
| David C.
Valued Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 111 Registered: 07-2007 |
I wandered into here after a brief and despairing sojourn in the fascist precincts of Poetry Free For All, so three cheers for Wild As Currently Constituted I say. (I also have another bolthole, but it's British. Beatles lyrics, anyone? There's a place ... ) Mind you, I think that one poem a week rule is a damn good one. I think I have fascist tendencies of my own. (Message edited by david_shay_mish on April 07, 2008) | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3709 Registered: 05-2006 |
Ah, the Poetry Free for All, where some of the worst trolls in the entire internet poetry scene hang out and hone their swords of arrogance. I've tried to play there THREE TIMES, and every time within days a "moderator" hits me with some crap like "go play in the sandbox." Fred Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23338 Registered: 07-2001 |
which is a metaphor for? grin Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2008 |
PFFA is like trying to hang out with the hippest people at the party. Never works. Unfortunately for them, our poems are better. | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Advanced Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 1774 Registered: 05-2007 |
Great. Let's start micro-managing the place and the popcorn too! That way we can feed everyone who comes whatever they really dig, even if it's their own graves with their tongues, errrr - pens...errrr keyboards. brrrrrrr errr I mean grrrrrrrrrrrrrr oops. not sure what I meant. I do the post one poem critique two when asked per individual forum rules. Which are simple, and guidelines. When I decide to post anything at all. But thoughtful as time permits (when I am posting anything, it is as my time permits and I desire to.) Both poems and critiques. I've learned much here. Hopefully creative types who are serious about the proliferation of free expression and creativity have learned something from me. If not, that's OK 2. It's not all about me, it's not all about you. It's about expression BUT also respect. And I'm not going anywhere - probably, or nowhere or somewhere ----but not too fast. But I will be thoughtful and respect even hackers and spammers and pseudo slammers or back-slappers or/and even miss manners would do no less, with a delicate touch that also has a way of smacking you in the face without really hurting anyone at all - out of love and respect for her own self as well as those who seek to be disrespectful. Because people are people, as ~M~ mentioned. And would we, as unique, creative and diverse intelligent people want anything less than that? Or has even poetry become an auto-bot type of creative writing exercise? Damn, I sure hope not! Last I checked, we're all human, right? Right? Hmmm... :-) Best regards, Tina (Message edited by tina_hoffman on April 07, 2008) Dare to dream a positive vision, and see it come true! | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9197 Registered: 07-2002 |
I am not one for draconian rules. I tend to not follow them and I certainly wouldn't want to be in the business of enforcing them. I also don't want to step on the wonderful creativity of our Wild membership. It is important to take stock now and again. This place is considerably more active than when I started here 6 or so years ago. It's even far more active than it was only 1 year ago. There was a time when I could read and comment on just about everything that was posted on the board in any given week. Now, I feel like Lucille Ball on an assembly line! If I miss a day, I get overwhelmed. What I find interesting (and this is only my biased observations, not backed up by any sort of statistic) is that doubling our membership and significantly increasing our volume of poems posted doesn't seem to have increased the number of comments per poem. For me (and this is my personal feeling, not a moderator position), the heart and soul of Wild is the conversation between poets. What makes this place the place I want to hang out is that give and take and critique. So for me, participation means taking the time to get to know the poetic styles and sensibilities of our member poets and engaging in dialogue about the writing. I recognize that this might not be everyone else's definition of participation and Wild is there for other purposes as well. Some of our members only participate in the weekly challenges or community poetry projects in "Balancing Chi". Anyway, part of this is my continuing struggle to figure out why there aren't more folks comfortable critiquing. But that's my perenniall preoccupation (nice alliteration!), so feel free to ignore me. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8359 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lisa, as a fellow moderator, I like your Lucille Ball analogy! And to this Bravo: "For me (and this is my personal feeling, not a moderator position), the heart and soul of Wild is the conversation between poets." I'm in total agreement. It is what brought me to Wild, and what keeps me here. I've learned to crit so well here, that now I'm critting your comments. LOL. *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| nia sunset
Advanced Member Username: nia Post Number: 1286 Registered: 04-2006 |
For me (and this is my personal feeling, not a moderator position), the heart and soul of Wild is the conversation between poets. Thank you Lisa, I think I can't explain well enough myself, but I agree with you and I talk sometimes that is not expected or necessary, Best wishes for Wild Poetry Poets, with my love, nia http://www.freewebs.com/butterflywingsofnia/ "Carry the beauties;wash the badnesses with your poetical spirit" | ||
| Tina Hoffman
Advanced Member Username: tina_hoffman Post Number: 1776 Registered: 05-2007 |
How about more moderators then? Less poems on the assembly line that go off the end of the conveyor belt without constructive comment? If that's possible, what are the mod requirements? A few questions that I might have prior to applying for the position: Do you have to be a good citizen, with a cane or ruler to smack the errant poets throwing hissy fits? How many poems does a mod, personally, have to have written to become a mod? Do you have to have taken College courses in creative writing to qualify as a mod, or even be a high school graduate? Or only masters/PhD's can be mods? What level member do you have to be in order to post critiques, or how many critiques must you have posted to be a mod? Who decides if a critique is "qualified" to be critical insight of a poets' poem such that it is acceptable for mod consideration? How many posts in total of this site must be posted to be considered as a mod? Is a background check and credit check required to become a mod? Is the Wild mod pool based on equal opportunity employment? What's the pay? Are there benefits? Do you have to visit every forum when it's your "mod" day? How many days per week must one mod when you're mod? How many mods does it take to keep intellectual intercourse between poets from becoming a mind fuck or egads, a rape of some with their cyber condoms on? Or simply keep the mental masturbation down to a minimum, even if it's a mutual thing. Wait, is that an oxymoron? Are there round the clock shifts as this site is a 24/7 site? Do you have to be an English teacher or a published poet or writer to moderate? Is there a mod critique minimum per day? Do you have to be multilingual? Do you have to be familiar with ALL forms of poetry and fiction writing to suggest the poem should be flash fiction or a short story rather than a poem? Do you have to prefer one era of poetry over another (modern, post-modern, etc.?) Do you have to have written white papers on your philosophy of poetry in order to be a moderator? If you're an idiot savant or infantile or under the legal age limit to be a poet, can you still be a mod without writing any poetry at all? Or just write poems and not care whether your critiqued as an egotistical arrogant egghead who just likes to write anything and damn the torpedos because the submarine has a screen door anyway? Hmmm.... now that I think of it. What are the requirements to be called a poet? Or do you, as most of the dedicated admin. and mod staff here simply have to have a love of writing and a desire to keep POETRY ALIVE (pssshaaawww, ten years ago the net, they were defending themselves and writing papers as to how poetry was in fact, not DEAD) and/or allow POETS to stay alive given their choice of stress relief at times (though other times they write FABULOUS poems when they aren't feeling quite so unsettled, perhaps even edgy or dare I say it - "dark" but not "suicidal?") Or was it all just a bad metaphor after all? Hmmm... who can say? How many poets are still alive to tell the tale? Or mods for that matter, who are weary, but still dedicated to the love of the arts. How many poems grew up to become songs? Hmmm... let's start a forum on the History of Poetry and each person can post a trivia question with prizes awarded daily (a nod that you won that week) for the best one and number of responses to the thread you started. No money though, we are a self-supporting site here, ya know. But you can throw a buck to the bookstore if you wish. That could help fund the paid for publishing program and bring more name recognition to the site. Sweet! Where is the Wild suggestion box? Gotta stick that in there. But back to the statistics and mod topic... Who was Hemingway's moderator? Who was Poe's moderator? Who was Sylvia Plath's moderator? I'm sure there are more troubled poets whose names I can't think of now, but those feelings and observations went on to make them better, albeit likely now dead poets. But their poetry is NOT dead. They had talent. They made money. After they left their "mark" on the literary society and readers and yes, were analyzed and critiqued by many young poets in letters and such, just to ensure we all weren't wrong about them, they were TERRRRRRRRIFIC! Who knows? Even here, we may have some posthumously perennially soon to be published authors whose families benefit from their previous participation in one of the various forums (whether moderated, critiqued or not) here on WIld. I like the Lucy episode (well the stomping grapes one of course, but this one in particular) where Lucy and Ethel wind up on stage at Ricky's show - and they both bought the same dress, but end up in a cat fight as they sing how they're SUCH good friends in a jealous fit such that they nearly strip each other completely of their lovely ball gowns and potentially their dignity and respect BUT, Ricky and Fred step in and calm them down - similarly to how the mods and admin function here on the Wild. Is there a mod application in the house? You poets who post poems but no critiques when asked for them in a specific forum (some don't ask for them, wow!) are you willing to give up hours and hours to ensure there is peace on this board as well as offer CONSTRUCTIVE critique as LJC suggested, even as slight as "this needs a comma, not a period?" If not - then perhaps you should not post here at the Wild at all...there are thousands of poetry forums on the big "I" - way.... Although I have seen many less friendly and devoted to the art of writing than this forum. In fact, a few that have gone down at the hands of poet terrorists who saw fit to squash the forums and its participants just as Lucy's cute little toes did in the other episode I much enjoy. But in the end, that turned out OK - because later on there was whine.... AND cheese and crackers for everyone! It was quite a soiree except for those assholes who couldn't handle their cheese and crackers. But they had bouncers for them!  Best regards, Tina Hoffman p.s. Where's the spell checker button on this thing? I'm off to FAQs to check. Have a nice day!  Copyrighted Tina M. Hoffman Incorporated LLC Original post posted as Wild says time/date stamped above. Printed for my own protection and also written by hand prior to editing but right now where I'm at it is: April 8, 2007 Eastern Standard Time Daylight Savings Time around the time I need to take Willie for a walk in the morning but the sun has not risen here yet - however, it is a new day and I am thankful for that, though Willie is a little pissed because I haven't taken him outside for his Morning constitution yet, and oh wait...I see the sun's fringes on the horizon, so I best git goin' - long day ahead! (Message edited by tina_hoffman on April 08, 2008) Dare to dream a positive vision, and see it come true! | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9198 Registered: 07-2002 |
I think the issue (again for me, not in my capacity as a mod) is that I worry that the current structure and the current pace of Wild doesn't allow for that community and conversation that I believe is essential. More moderators doesn't really fix that problem, as it's not really the job of the moderator to critique every poem. (though I would like to be able to!) I really didn't intend to open a can of worms here, just looking for ways to enhance the poetic conversation. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Judy Thompson
Advanced Member Username: judyt54 Post Number: 1064 Registered: 11-2007 |
sometimes, lj, opening that can of worms is necessary and can lead to interesting places. I know all too well that sense of being a board host and coming in in the morning to find fifteen new poems waiting, and more rolling down the chute. It can be overwhelming. I see very few poems that go uncommented upon, in any of the crit forums. I do think reminders to the three-a-day posters that one a week might be plenty if they want serious attention to their work. Amazing what the stick/carrot thing can do for people. Wild is growing. The structure you have, works for the size it is now, but the fact that it's being addressed now might mean considering restructuring in some way, and even though none of us likes to change what works, it may be time to think about it. After all, if we lose that sense of community, that 'let's sit down and talk about the poem you just wrote' then you've lost a lot of the charm and magic that makes Wild what it is. | ||
| David Dumais
New member Username: scribbledhopes Post Number: 41 Registered: 03-2008 |
I am sure some newer posters like me have my problem. I read a ton of poems on wild, everynight now usually for at least an hour I just read,(sometimes reread if they are really good). The place is wonder, I wish I knew about it sooner. But I run into one problem commenting on someone elses poems at times, and I do and take the chance. It reminds me of the story about the emperor who ran around naked and everyone was afraid to be called a fool and pretended they saw the clothes. I see a senior memeber, the poems needs a little love somewhere that I would like to mention. There is two posts already bowing in awe at the structure of it. I don't know much about Structure, I only know what it makes me feel. So instead of posting, I back down and slink away. who is the newguy to challenge the senior guy on work. At best I try to learn from it, if there is anything I can glean. So I try and hunt down people of my own skill set, (new people, unsure) and comment on those, instead of looking the fool. But at times I wanted to say, this is so good, if you could just change this, I would understand and feel it better. So what I am trying to say, some of us a bit timid and tread lightly, so we don't trip on what we don't know. So a limit on how many poems one can post, would crimp some I think if it was too small, as some of them have been waiting a lifetime to find a place like this, and our desks get cluttered. Just a couple of pennies from the newguy. (Message edited by scribbledhopes on April 08, 2008) (Message edited by scribbledhopes on April 08, 2008) Poems are like toes, if you press down on them them it may hurt, but until you do you will never know if you are in the correct shoes. | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23340 Registered: 07-2001 |
David, never be afraid to comment on a "senior's" poem. Senior may only mean a member who talks to much. Please remember every poem is not written with an educated reader in mind. In fact, by far the most are not - they are written for the average Joe or Jill. All veiws are encouraged which is what makes Wild special to me... Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| Ros Badcoe
Member Username: endolith Post Number: 86 Registered: 03-2008 |
I'm still twitching slightly from my encounter with PFFA, so I really do appreciate the friendliness of everyone here. I feel very much at home (pulls sofa a little nearer, rests feet on fireplace). I know what you feel, David, about commenting on the ancient and venerable(!) but I tend to stick my neck out and do it. They can always ignore it, but they may just some time find something helpful in what I say. I think a limit of one poem a day is more than reasonable. Actually, I think two a week is reasonable. | ||
| SarahJ
Intermediate Member Username: sarahj Post Number: 414 Registered: 02-2007 |
After having been a moderator on another board, my opinion leans towards limiting how many poems a poet can post each day/week. Wild has way more active members than where I was monitor, and I can't imagine feeling the pressure to comment on everything in a meaningful way. I suppose monitors aren't required to comment on everything, but I bet they would like to. I also favor asking poets for two crits for every poem they post. I've never been un-ruly. smile, sarah the rain in my purse | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29345 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest All -- First of all, thanks to Lisa for opening the can of worms. Perhaps not the best timing as I'm still working (or rather trying to work) on the Challenge entries, but hey, Lucy didn't get to pick what time the conveyor belt started moving either. *LOL* Just to let you all know, there are discussions going on behind the scenes among the staff about these and other issues. We'll read and take into consideration what everyone has to say, so feel free to make your opinions known, preferably here in this thread, so we all see them (and I don't have to respond to each person via e-mail separately). As Lisa noted, more mods doesn't fix the problem of too many posts and things moving down the boards too quickly. We're discussing several other options that might address those specific problems. We'll inform everyone when options have been kicked around and some decisions have been reached. Until then, we thank everyone, both old and new members, for expressing their opinions. We listen, really we do! Love, M | ||
| Lazarus
Senior Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 3183 Registered: 10-2005 |
Oops this post was missing my intro. I'm sure it was very empathetic to the board but I haven't got a clue exactly what I said! Anyway, here are my thoughts: On Forums: The description for CV reads, “This forum is for LIGHT CRITIQUE. Poetry posted here will receive general comments and minimal suggestions. This is a good place if you are at an INTERMEDIATE level of this kind of meditation.” I think adding that "INTERMEDIATE level" line is a misnomer. The poems in CV were written by poets at all levels, so it should say that. I doubt if anyone really wants to call themselves intermediate level. Forums should not be for the type of poet, they should be for the type of poem comments. Any poet can write any kind of poem at any time, so there is no need to label the poet. However, the type of work the poem needs depends on the poem, and the poet’s readiness to do the work. On posting poem: I post poems in CV that I think have a certain entertainment value, or that I feel are good enough to be considered for POW, or that I know need some work. I post in BIO if I’m getting ready to submit a poem, as a final draft edit, or if I think the idea merits publishing but it's not quite there yet and needs some careful reads to get it right. I post in Sub when I have the germ of an idea that needs extra help to get going. On comments: I read way more than I comment. I don’t comment if the gist of what needed to be said has already been said by a few others. I don’t comment if the author seems uninterested in the comments, i.e. they don’t respond to the comments or they don’t explain their reasons for not addressing the comments. I don’t comment if the poster posts lots of poems in a row, (maybe just to one of them), or lots of poem in a week, (again maybe to one or two). Sometimes I go a long time only commenting, and not posting any poems. So when I post a poem I don’t feel like I owe a certain number of comments, I have lots in the bank, so to say. When the muse is going I may post a few poems close together. I think that’s acceptable if your inspiration tends to run in spurts. On Moderators: I think you guys do a great job watching the site and nurturing the writers. Yeah, there are a lot of poems to cover every week, and I don’t know how you do it sometimes! At least you don’t have to see everything in sub or the trains. I don’t think if there were more comments on each poem your job would be any easier. It might follow that poets would work more on each poem, but more than likely, things would stay the same. There is only so much you can do to fix a poem, at some point you go on to the next one, right? At its best, a poetry forum is like a battleship; always in a constant state of controlled chaos. At is worst it’s like a war zone, and you don’t want to know what that’s like. (Message edited by lazarus on April 08, 2008) -Laz | ||
| David C.
Valued Member Username: david_shay_mish Post Number: 112 Registered: 07-2007 |
"PFFA is like trying to hang out with the hippest people at the party." Oh no, I don't think so, although I'm sure they'd like to. What their moderators actually remind me of is Comic Book Guy in The Simpsons - arrogant, rude, but essentially rather pathetic. Mind you, they do speak almost fluent Klingon. | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Moderator Username: kathy Post Number: 8366 Registered: 12-2003 |
My laugh for the day: "ancient and venerable(!)" I've fallen and I can't get up. (ROTFL) Could someone help me off the floor please? First of all, ancient reminds me of mummies and though we're well-preserved we're not that old, and venerable makes us sound like royalty, and although I'd like to be queen for a day, like that would ever happen, I'm not royal. How about you look at moderators as "as young and vulnerable as any member of Wild" We may know some good stuff, but we're all still learning, esp as we get older and more forgetful. Okay, I'll get off the floor now. *Kathy You're invited to: Wild Flowers Poetry is a way of taking life by the throat.--Robert Frost | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 646 Registered: 11-2005 |
An interesting discussion. I think the way things are run here is fine. Some people will post a lot, some a little, all of us I think try to comment to the best of our ability. Naturally some folks write more and comment less, but that's just how it works. Fine by me. I think the moderators here do a fantastic job. Its part of why this works. I would hate for them to be overworked, tho. VACATION is always a good thing. (But please don't actually TAKE one, LOL) A great site, and a wonderful concept, thanks all. regards Sue | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Moderator Username: garydawg Post Number: 23343 Registered: 07-2001 |
Sue, leaving for two weeks - modumless. Thanks for pass for shore leave. Smiles. Gary Celebrate Walt with Gary: http://www.poetrykit.org/pkl/tw10/tw4conte.htm | ||
| sue kay
Intermediate Member Username: suekay Post Number: 647 Registered: 11-2005 |
NO! No leave for you! Just kidding. I believe in theory in everyone's right to a vacation. OK, have a great time! regards Sue | ||
| M. Kathryn Black
Senior Member Username: kathryn Post Number: 5438 Registered: 09-2002 |
I couldn't read the whole thread, just wanted to put down my opinion. I crit when I feel there's a need to, so I post once a day on CV. I always post responses (as many as I have time for) before I post my next days poem, and Fred, if you should crit my work which you did once, recently, you will have found that I followed your suggestions. Always, Kathryn But little by little, as you left their voices behind, the stars began to burn... -Mary Oliver | ||
| Lisa England
Valued Member Username: diamondwife Post Number: 197 Registered: 08-2007 |
Maybe people who don't post a lot of crits aren't looking for pats on the back for their own work as much as they may lack the confidence as a writer to feel they have any right to crit anyone else's work. Also, a "token crit" may be all someone can muster as they are learning how all of this works. It can be rather intimidating,as a less experienced poet who knows little of form, meter etc. to comment on the work of a more experienced poet. I'm working on this. Self-confidence is one of my big issues, not just with writing. Sometimes I question my sanity when I don't like poems that get rave reviews from others or really like things others seem to dislike. I know a lot of it is subjective, but I'm a perfectionist and I don't want to look wrong or foolish. With little technical knowledge of poetry, everything I offer is subjective. I also try to follow suggestions, but sometimes it is hard when they directly contradict each other. Then I just get confused and argue with myself. Lisa England
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| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 9201 Registered: 07-2002 |
David and Lisa, You both make a good point discussing your trepidation to offer critique, particularly if others have made comments that you do not agree with. As a poet, I value a wide variety of viewpoints on my work. What's more important to me than what someone likes, is what doesn't work for a reader. I may not take all suggestions, but I certainly consider them in light of the piece and future pieces. In terms of the critique process itself, that is a learning process just as writing is. There are a host of resources posted in our own 'naturopathy' section on critique: http://wildpoetryforum.com/~wildpoet/discus/messages/33334/33334.html?1207695555 best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog LJCohen | ||
| Emusing
Senior Member Username: emusing Post Number: 5556 Registered: 08-2003 |
I have always felt torn between CV and Bio because quite selfishly I like in-depth critique from both M and Lisa. I place a poem in Bio when: 1. It is a poem I consider of good quality, I have taken it as far as I can and I want to push it further. 2. It is a very difficult poem that has merit but needs major surgery. 3. A challenge poem that did not “score” which I feel might need more intense feedback. Bio is an in-depth workshop. It can take a Chevy apart and put it back together without the manual. If you look at Lisa’s comments, you will see that they are very detailed, well considered and (in my lucky experience) bring the poem to a place it would never have reached on its own. What more could I ask? I post my poems in CV when. 1. (Same as one above. This is why it is sometimes difficult to choose.) 2. I think it’s pretty good and I’m looking for general comments. I have received in-depth crit from M in CV as well and I believe this is because she gets to know each poet and the way they like to receive comments. She knows she can sculpt my poems any way she pleases and I know I’m in good hands. 3. I also post in CV when I write something on the light side that I want to share with everyone, whether haiku, a humorous work, an occasional rant, etc. There are many individuals in CV whose comments mean a great deal to me. I count on them. I have sometimes wished that a poem could be posted simultaneously in CV and BIO but then you guys would really be overloaded! Personally, I have so much going on, I feel a certain despair in not being able to read everyone’s poems and give them the kind of feedback I know that I am capable of. I don’t know how to spread myself so thin. I wish for more hours in the day so that I could genuinely invest myself in many of the poems here (as I once did when I was a moderator) because I don’t want to be a hit and run poet. I started reading poetry because I loved to “stop time”. That moment of being in the poem and reading it and rereading it to capture all the nuance. I feel I have lost the ability to do this temporarily because of too many obligations. I digress. I haven’t been posting very much in recent months but I do try to keep my toes in the water here, commenting here and there when I can. I always feel the pull especially when others have been so generous in offering feedback and I have neglected them over time. One last thing I’ll say, I try to put a little bit of kindness in my responses. I know this sounds odd, but you know, admiration is so important and I don’t like this quick jab type of comment that feels like somebody caught your poem on the fly on the way to something else more important. I don’t always succeed but hey who is perfect. I start to get a sense of whether my comments are helpful to the poet and so I will continue. Sometimes you have a situation where there are certain individuals who will always give you something good to chew on and others, even those with a great deal of experience, will never hit the mark. This is because their personal aesthetic is just different from mine. That doesn’t mean anything negative, only that they see the poem from a completely different universe but I will always acknowledge their willingness to help me. Sometimes I think, who has time to read all this stuff? Even this post heh heh. I want to get rich and dedicate all my time to reading and writing. I want to start a home for poets with talent and no means. I want…. xo e www.wordwalkerpress.com | ||
| W.F. Roby
Valued Member Username: wfroby Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2008 |
If there is a rule made allowing only one poem per week, I will no longer participate. For what its worth. I believe I have MORE than met the general 3:1 ratio (having posted 5 poems ((6?) and many multiples of that in critiques) and still we're going to be punished? Why should those of us who DO participate correctly be punished? I say step up, be adults, and kick people out who don't follow the golden ratio rule. I could name SEVERAL members who rarely if ever post a critique. I say kick em out. You make a rule barring anyone from posting more than once, and I'm outta here quicker than Big Red at a family reunion. Its the principle of the thing. I'm not sitting here thinking "OoooOOoohhh how many poems can I post this week? 2? 4? 17?" No! I'm against limits like this because they don't take every case into consideration. Maybe one week I have two poems I REALLY want workshopped -- well then I get my butt out there and make 10+ critiques. That's what you do. If they don't want to play, they can dig up their own field. | ||
| Will Eastland
Intermediate Member Username: dwillo Post Number: 547 Registered: 07-2006 |
Your marbles, sir.  I don't think any new rule or stepped up enforcement is coming. You can breathe easy.  I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. ~Ashleigh Brilliant | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29363 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest All -- again, I thank you for sharing your opinions. They are all recognized and duly noted. That being said, I remind everyone that Wild is a community. Decisions are made and directions decided upon based on how healthy and productive they are for an entire community, not based on how well they might fit (or in some cases, not fit) a single individual. While we hope that all people will somehow find a way to integrate themselves into our community, we understand that this might not always be possible. We apologize in advance if the decisions made or directions taken are not exactly as you (the individual) would desire or choose. Really, we are quite liberal here, but even the most liberal of communities will find that some cannot tolerate nor abide by community-wide and community-sensitive decisions and directions. If you find yourself in that category, we hope those choices you make for yourself will work best for you. Love, M | ||
| Fred Longworth
Senior Member Username: sandiegopoet Post Number: 3727 Registered: 05-2006 |
Because have posting much, moderators been half words. I misunderstood. Please my back.  Unofficial Forum Pariah recent victim of alien abduction | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 29364 Registered: 11-1998 |
Dearest Derf -- you drive me nuts. You always have. You always will. Thank god. Love, M |
