| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2226 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, Here is one of the most egregious examples of what was termed a “translation” that I am aware of in this issue of Poetry magazine. It is the poem by Rilke (clearly not one of his best). The original: Das Lied des Zwerges Meine Seele ist vielleicht grad und gut; aber mein Herz, mein verbogenes Blut, alles das, was mir wehe tut, kann sie nicht aufrecht tragen. Sie hat keinen Garten, sie hat kein Bett, sie hängt an meinem scharfen Skelett mit entsetztem Flügelschlagen. Aus meinen Händen wird auch nichts mehr. Wie verkümmert sie sind: sieh her: zähe hüpfen sie, feucht und schwer, wie kleine Kröten nach Regen. Und das Andre an mir ist abgetragen und alt und trist; warum zögert Gott, auf den Mist alles das hinzulegen. Ob er mir zürnt für mein Gesicht mit dem mürrischen Munde? Es war ja so oft bereit, ganz licht und klar zu werden im Grunde; aber nichts kam ihm je so dicht wie die großen Hunde. Und die Hunde haben das nicht. Aus: Das Buch der Bilder A “near literal” translation: The Song of the Dwarf My soul is perhaps straight and good; but my heart, my twisted blood, everything that is hurting me cannot be carried upright. It has no garden, it has no bed, it hangs on my sharp skeleton with a terrified beating of wings. From my hands can come nothing more. How stunted they are, see here: they move in hops, clammy, moist and heavy like small toads after a rain. And the other things about me are threadbare, old and dreary; why does God hesitate to lay everything on the dung heap? Is He angry at me for my face with its sullen mouth? It was ready so often to turn bright and clear in its depths; but nothing ever came so close to it as the big dogs. And dogs do not have that. -- translated by Jim Doss Translation in Poetry: Song of the Little Cripple on the Street Corner Maybe my soul’s all right. But my body’s all wrong. All bent and twisted, All this that hurts me so. My soul keeps trying, trying To straighten my body up. It hangs on my skeleton, frantic, Flapping its terrified wings. Look here, look at my hands, They look like little wet toads After the rainstorm’s over, Hopping, hopping, hopping. Maybe God didn’t like The look on my face when He saw it. Sometimes a big dog Looks right into it. -- translated by David Ferry To his credit David Ferry tries to back away from calling this a translation, but not strongly enough. His poem is clearly an independent creation that uses the Rilke poem as a starting point. However, I am disappointed with the editors of Poetry in labeling this a translation to begin with and including it in this issue. They clearly did not do their homework. Jim My Books Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 7468 Registered: 07-2001 |
Jim, in a similar case, Sam Hamill writes of Basho's frog, generally translated as Old-pond leap-splash a frog (this Stryk's) Hamill writes that Basho would not have included the sound, that as a Zen poet, he would esentially leave the poem unfinished letting the reader add the splash. And consider these versions of The Tao There are ways but the Way is uncharted; There are names but not nature in words: Nameless indeed is the source of creation But things have a mother and she has a name. --Raymond Blakney There are ways but the Way is uncharted; There are names but not nature in words: Nameless indeed is the source of creation But things have a mother and she has a name. --Peter Merel and my favorite The way you can go isn't the real way. The name you can say is the real name. Heaven and earth begin in the unnamed: name's the mother of the ten thousand things. --Ursula Le Guin The latter says that she is delibrately poetic and translates a more feminine version to cut the often war-like nature of the book. While I understand your point about Ferry's version, I also agree with him. An accurate translation may be unreadable or lack poetics. To close, Tony Barnstone states we need a creative element in translation. Having read many good translations but poor poems, I agree. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House March 2006 FireWeed | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 7470 Registered: 07-2001 |
Never work from memory. Hamill wrote that Frog is often seen as A old pond. A frog leaps in. Kerplop. and that better is At the ancient pond a frog plunges into the sound of water. And that we as the reader should supply the sound/noise instead of the translator. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House March 2006 FireWeed | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 4715 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Gary and Jim A very interesting conversation. I am glad you found the works included in the Translation issue of Poetry to be provocative. I do agree with you, Jim, that on a general basis the translator should stay true to the spirit of the original work being translated, that is, try to capture what the poet was saying in the original language. If the translator veers away from the original author's intentions, then clearly it is another work, inspired by the original, perhaps, but not a translation. I will say that I realise that every writer is going to bring something of themselves to whatever they do. So, for example, if William Stafford, say, is translating a poem, he is going to bring some William Stafford schtick to the work. But, then, as I say, the end product should preferablely even so respect the original work rather than give us something new. Jim, I see in your version of the Rilke poem that David Ferry has left out entirely the idea at the end of stanza 2, "why does God hesitate to lay everything on the dung heap?" Then at the end of the poem, Ferry gives a very loose interpretation of the original that you render in the final stanza as Is He angry at me for my face with its sullen mouth? It was ready so often to turn bright and clear in its depths; but nothing ever came so close to it as the big dogs. And dogs do not have that. -- and that he gives as Maybe God didn’t like The look on my face when He saw it. Sometimes a big dog Looks right into it. -- whereas, it looks as if Rilke's intention was to talk about the face of the dog, isn't that right, rather than that the dog was looking at the speaker's face? Hmmmmmm.... I do like Ferry's lively interpretation of the hopping toads going in his third stanza -- Look here, look at my hands, They look like little wet toads After the rainstorm’s over, Hopping, hopping, hopping. -- but that again is going further than Rilke's orginal as reflected in your translation -- From my hands can come nothing more. How stunted they are, see here: they move in hops, clammy, moist and heavy like small toads after a rain. And the other things about me are threadbare, old and dreary; why does God hesitate to lay everything on the dung heap? -- where as I mentioned earlier, the idea of God's hesitation is left out entirely, as is the concept of the dung heap. So I agree with you that Ferry has gone further than the translator should and created a whole new poem. I also agree that it is disappointing that the editors of Poetry would publish something that would appear to contravene the rules of translating another poets work and blur the lines as to what a translation should be. All my best Chris (Message edited by Chrisgeorge on April 17, 2006) Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com/ Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net/ http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2229 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris and Gary, Thanks for engaging me in this discussion. I am not trying to say that all translations should be literal, but that they should be loyal to the spirit, logic and basic form of the original while striving to successful poems in English. I think David Ferry has created an original work of art that is loosely based on Rilke’s poem, but should not be represented as Rilke’s work. I would have no quarrel if it were listed as the work of David Ferry with a footnote to indicate it is based on Rilke’s poem. But to label “Song of the Little Cripple on the Street Corner” as Rilke’s work strikes me as a misrepresentation. Even as eminent a translator as Robert Bly caught flack from the literary community over deviations from the original far less pronounced than Ferry’s to the point where he now labels some of this work versions instead of translations. So my fundamental question is-- what is 1) a translation 2) a version 3) an original work based loosely on someone else’s poem The answer are, of course, subjective, and show a clear progression down the creativity scale. Of the poems I can speak authoritatively on in this issue of Poetry, I would say Michael Hofmann’s translation of Bertolt Brecht’s Of Poor B.B. is clearly a translation, while David Ferry’s translation of Rilke’s Song of the Little Cripple on the Street Corner is the work of David Ferry using the Rilke poem as his starting point. * * * * I would have found this issue of Poetry even more interesting if the editors would have elected to take their readers deeper into the translation process by showing multiple version of the poems from the first to the last revision as the translators struggled with their task to render a successful poem in English. My Books Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 7487 Registered: 07-2001 |
Jim, re your last point, may I recommend the best book of that kind ever: 19 ways of looking at Wang Wei by Eliot Weinberger, actually 25 ways and The Poem behind the Poem edited by Frank Stewart. The latter is longish essays on translating East Asian poetry. Weinberger does a critical look at translations of Deer Park up to about 1980. Three are more that I someday hope to review. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House March 2006 FireWeed | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2232 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gary, I'll track down the book you mention. However, I'd say there must be a great deal of difference between translating eastern and western poetry. The creative challenge in western poetry revolves more around how the translator turns a word or phase into something that is meaningful in English since the alphabets and grammers are somewhat similar to English. Jim My Books Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| kdnxdr
New member Username: kdnxdr Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hello, I am new to your community and have become brave enough to join your discussion of Poetry magazine's translations. Sadly, I don't have the knowledge background of the originals and or other translations for comparison. That said, I hope it won't be awkward for anyone if I give comment regarding the translated poem's content as published in this issue. After reading your discussion thus far, I realize I would only be commenting on partial elements of the poems, if you all prefer I not comment, I will respect your censure. Until notified, I would like to participate, even in my crippled state, standing on my corner. | ||
| kdnxdr
New member Username: kdnxdr Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2005 |
I understand that by definition, it's essential for a translator to capture what the poet was saying in the original language and that a translation should respect the original work. A tranlator should adhere to the rules of tranlating. The spirit,logic and basic form of the original should be respected. That said, version being distict from translation, I would like to wonder, did the translator abide by the previous covenant? Perhaps. I have no way of knowing how many hours/days/weeks/months/years he spent in actual work translating. In his defense, he states throughout the purpose of his work: an experiment, plundering for the three figures, a kind of abstraction of a poem. Ferry sees his own work as a theft, "larcenous", and doesn't really apologize but rather, takes a different perspective, as the observer's conscious of the observed, rather than Rilke's subjective lament of paltry condition. Rilke IS the street person, the abject; Ferry is the diassociated soul, free to question condemnation. Rilke accepts his condition and participates in it's demise. Ferry resists. Life is ultimately the poem and, in fact, we are all tranlators of something original. (Message edited by kdnxdr on April 21, 2006) | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2239 Registered: 12-2003 |
kdnxdr, Thanks for engaging the discussion. I can speak authoritatively on two poems in the issue—Brecht and Rilke. The Brecht poem is definitely a traditional translation, though I would quibble over a number of the word choices. I would have no problem with the Ferry poem, regardless of how long he worked on it, if he listed it as an original work based on several images taken from a Rilke poem. Ferry's long apology/explanation for this non-translation ends with him referring to the poem as an adaptation of Rilke. He should have just put that label on the work in the first place. Jim My Books Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| kdnxdr
New member Username: kdnxdr Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2005 |
Jim, Thank you for welcoming me. I can't speak authoritatively on anything, I'm sorry to say. May I ask, when you all have these discussions, do you primarily discuss only the mechanics of translating? Do you ever discuss the actual content and intent of the message of the poem and whether the translator attempts to replicate that intent to the letter or whether the translator attempts to present the same poem with a different perspective? Or, do you ever discuss how well the translator conveys the original intent of the poem and what that intent was attempting? | ||
| Jim Doss
Senior Member Username: jimdoss Post Number: 2240 Registered: 12-2003 |
This is first time we have tried to have these types of discussions on Wild so we are breaking new ground here. Please feel free to take this discussion in any direction that you want or to start a new thread. Is there a particular poem from the issue of poetry you are interested in discussing? Jim My Books Loch Raven Review Editor Trakl Translations | ||
| Kathy Paupore
Senior Member Username: kathy Post Number: 3222 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I know no other language than English so translation is beyond me, but I do believe the translator should stay as true to the original work as possible. Some rearrangement of the words may be needed for clarification or understanding though. The translation should be pure, a version more what the translator brings of himself, and I have been inspired by other poets and based my work on their style or what the poem opens in me (but English poets only), these I consider my work, but would nod to the original poet if I used some of their wording. BTW, when I got my issue I scanned for your name as a translator. Gary, I have a list of about 25 different translations and interpretaions of Basho's Frog poem. It was an interesting find. Maybe you have the same.  K Wild Flowers | ||
| kdnxdr
New member Username: kdnxdr Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2005 |
Jim, It would be a great disservice to you all if I were to initiate discussion of a particular poem. I'm happy to be an observer/learner that just happens to "peep up" once and awhile. I am enjoying reading the poems. This is my first experience to even consider the world of translation. I am not fluent in spanish, however, this has got me thinking that it would be an interesting experience to attempt a spanish poem. I was intriqued with "The Power of a Question" and, in my ignorance, I found myself arguing with the translator as to who had asked "the question". The translator suggests it was "staleness" that the poet was suffering from in this piece. I found myself saying, "No, the poet was distracted from his work by infatuation". But, as I don't have the original, nor the knowledge base to back that up, I can only say that it is something I took from the poem itself. The translator mentions, "The poem was written in the same period in which Howe was working with Ruth R. Wisse...." and that makes me wonder what was that relationship about. (Message edited by kdnxdr on April 22, 2006) (Message edited by kdnxdr on April 22, 2006) (Message edited by kdnxdr on April 22, 2006) |
