| Author | Message | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4667 Registered: 07-2002 |
I am thinking about writing an essay/guide to critique and was interested in your feedback. --are you a begining, developing, or experienced poet? --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? --are you comfortable offering critique? --if not, why not? --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? Feel free to answer any/all of the questions above, as well as adding any other feedback you think relevant. Thanks! ljc (ps--some wonderful stuff in Biofeedback--don't be shy, come take a look!) Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 5053 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Lisa I will be glad to provide answers to your questions. But do you want us to reply in this thread or to e-mail them to you? Chris Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com/ Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net/ http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/ | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4668 Registered: 07-2002 |
Chris--thank you! In this thread, I think--that way we can spark a conversation and I get email copies as well. Best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Christopher T George
Senior Member Username: chrisgeorge Post Number: 5054 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Lisa I regard myself as an advanced practitioner of the art of writing poetry, having been involved in poetry for some 35 years, since I took literary courses at Loyola College and writing courses at the neighboring College of Notre Dame and the Johns Hopkins University. Even so, though I have been involved in writing and editing poetry for these many decades, I still regard workshops and the study of good poetry by well known, established and new poets an essential part of my craft. Constructive comments are welcomed by me and incorporated if I believe, as is often the case, the critiquer suggests something that will improve the poem. I do write poetry for publication, either on-line or in print publications, and have a hard time conceiving of poets who say they just write for themselves and are not interested in publishing. As such, I am writing for a readership, and I would like to be recognized as a good poet who has something to say, even if that is mostly among my peers, i.e., fellow poets and other writers, rather than the world at large. I have no problem in return offering critique. I recognize that to be part of the process of give-and-take whereby if I am to get useful comments I have to give useful comments in return. I am not bashful therefore about giving comments either to advanced or beginning poets to help them to improve their works. You say, "what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism?" Each of these terms can mean different things depending on the context. Or they can mean the same thing if by each of them constructive and friendly critique is meant. However, I suppose there is a difference whereby "comments" could sometimes be puff pieces without any real insightful commentary, a pat on the back in other words, while "critique" and "criticism" usually mean something more penetrating. In fact of course "criticism" could mean comments that are not constructive at all, but only negative remarks. I would hope though that a "critique" and "criticism" would suggest ways forward to improvement of the piece rather than simply remarks saying what is bad about the piece. We all need a pat on the back and encouragement, and as I say I write and open my works up for critique hoping to get helpful suggestions for improvement. Detailed critique is wonderful if it is given in such a helpful and friendly manner. State what is wrong or weak about a work but suggest ways that the writer could improve. I have no problem giving and taking critique done in such a way. Lisa, I hope these comments are useful to you and help get the discussion going. Feel free to ask me anything about what I have said if you need clarification. All my best Chris (Message edited by Chrisgeorge on May 19, 2006) Editor, Desert Moon Review http://www.desertmoonreview.com/ Co-Editor, Loch Raven Review http://www.lochravenreview.net/ http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Intermediate Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 976 Registered: 08-2004 |
Glad you asked: --are you a beginning, developing, or experienced poet? Developing, hopefully always. --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? Confidence. I need conformation. --are you comfortable offering critique? A very small amount of critique, yes. Confidence in my own knowledge of the practice of poetry plays a very huge part in my opinion of, not only another's art, but in the interpretation of another's art. --if not, why not? LOL See above answer. --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Criticism is an immediate and negative thought. Critique is a well thought, well judged opinion that may and may not be negative. Comments are exactly what I am doing right now by using a personal opinion. --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? A Masters in art. (((smile))) Karen (Message edited by klhmonahan on May 19, 2006) | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 7801 Registered: 07-2001 |
--are you a begining, developing, or experienced poet? Developing --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? for the suggestions and because I do not proof well --are you comfortable offering critique? Yes, when I time and in the right place. I do not like to crit in places where I might encounter a lot of "thanks, but it is my poem etc" or "my mother likes it, what is your problem?" --if not, why not? See above --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Comments need not relate to the poem. Critique looks at technique and use of words and poetics. Should be impersonal. Criticism evaluates work in broader, mor philosophical terms. Might be more personal. --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? Time. Actually, I need and think my writting is suffering because I am not doing some line by lines. But time. There is a missing question: Name 3 things needed in good critique. Be honest. If you see something, say it - but make sure you state some in terms like "You might" or "You could" Do not be pretensious. If you have an MFA, have been writing for 50 years, wine awards and always get published, see #1. Do not read just for the sake of finding something wrong. Three is always something wrong, but you can stretch a comment till it breaks esp if recommending parts be cut. I've had poems disappear when I took out all the parts to cut. Some repeating needed. Be courtious. Please, thank you, you might, maybe - all should be used. Maybe there are more. Be generous. Tell the good things also. Treat everyone the same. Whether a beginner or your favorite seasoned poet, tell it like it is. In fact, the experienced may post drafts to get those comments. Do not take everything. Know the difference between fact and opinion. Do not crit the poet, subject (with a few exceptions), language, etc. Unless the poet says he is sending a sexy poem to a church publication. Suggest publications. And here suggestion a heavier crit level might help more. In fact, I think all Wild beginners could benefit from from at least mid-crit. That is more than 3 but there is more. Get a gig editing. It helps your own work. And if you really want the best help, for 6 months to a year immerse yourself. Time for me to hush. Thanks and smiles. Gary and do post the link when finished. I know a zine that might be interested in the final. A River Transformed The Dawg House March 2006 FireWeed | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4670 Registered: 07-2002 |
Chris, Karen, and Gary--thank you so very much for starting the ball rolling. You have been so generous with your thoughts on critique and have given me much to think about. This is something that is near and dear to my heart, as I believe the act of giving good critique is vital to a poet's own development as a writer. Stay tuned! And more thoughts from more wild poets, please! best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Lazarus
Advanced Member Username: lazarus Post Number: 1827 Registered: 10-2005 |
--are you a beginning, developing, or experienced poet? I’ve been writing poetry all my life, but I have never had any feedback. This (Wild) is the first time I’ve gotten any help, and all of it has been useful. --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? To improve on the poem I post, but also, to learn what went wrong so I won’t do it in the next poem. --are you comfortable offering critique? I am comfortable offering my impressions of what works or doesn’t work, but I’m aware that my own knowledge is still lacking, and therefore I avoid getting too detailed. I have also had a few experiences that have not been pleasant, where I offered too much or the wrong kind of advice to the type of poster, so I am much more cautious now about what I say. --if not, why not? see above --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Comments show how the poem affected the reader. If there is something that sticks out to me as a problem I will mention it. It is also more attuned to the idea of the poem rather than the construction of the poem. Critique looks at the poem’s poetic effectiveness in a line by line, or item by item fashion. It shows how the poem might be changed to work better. Criticism speaks about how the poem fits into our current poetic evolution. I don’t believe this belongs in a poetry forum. It should probably only be used by professional poets who know what they are doing, and on published poems that are open for debate. --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? I feel as I grow and learn as a poet myself I will be able to do this better and better. I don’t think it is something that you can teach or set guidelines for. Some people are just going to be better at this than others. The hardest thing about critiquing is being able to separate my voice from the poet’s. I find I can turn almost any poem into a poem written by Lazarus, but that’s not what I’m supposed to do! So, I have learned to be very aware of advice I might give that goes away from the voice that is already present. Hope that helps Lisa. “Any step of art is a breathtaking step into abyss”- michael julius sottak (Wild Poet) | ||
| Laurie Byro
Advanced Member Username: lauriette Post Number: 1741 Registered: 11-2003 |
hi lisa, I like much of what Laz said. I had typed up a page on this and it disappeared, now I'm frustrated because of it. Steve (to name one, but there are others) and I have gotten into almost heated debates about this after he had sent me an email regarding my work. He thought it was better to go to private email rather than put his opinion on the workshop. While I appreciated his discretion, I was astounded by his audacity. This isn't pick on Steve day, either, I'm just expressing my concern and dismay over workshopping ESPECIALLY in an on-line situation. Let me expand without sounding high handed. There are many advantages to critical analysis on line. It's easy, accessible, immediate, FREE. I could go on with many of its glaring advantages. A glaring disadvantage is that I think newbies, folks coming into this without a lot of knowledge can be harmed worse than helped on these boards. My feeling is sort of what Laz decribed and that is that I (me personally) would like to see someone's writing credits, their credentials, their professional affiliations, before I allow someone to take apart one of my poems. I've had work butchered on these boards by the well intended. I have won awards on poems that I was told on other boards "this is crap, this is the worst piece of writing I've ever seen, this is so bad I won't comment" etc. I have had the good fortune and grace to have apprenticed myself to a couple of EXCELLENT writers and editors. Mark Hillringhouse would be one. BIll Zander and Rene Ashley would be two others. There are folks from Wild who have helped me enormously and also from other boards whose advice and work and attention to form and detail has been a boon to my work. Ivan Waters and I have collaberated and that has been a success. I have had work plagarized and mocked and that has not been a success. At times, I have felt so damaged by the very boards who have helped me that I vowed never to return. Then I'd get an email from Alex Stolis who would say "you don't need much, trust your instincts" I never feel I am qualified enough myself to make authoritative statements regarding someone else's work. I recently, however, edited a buddy's poem and I KNOW I know I helped it tremendously, (and he thanked me and recognised that it was helped) but for the most part, I feel I need to know the poetic vision, the intention of the poet, I need more than an on line workshop can give me. In "live" workshops, passing around work by the same folks, you can brave it out and get to know the person, what they expect, what they want, how much they want etc. You, yourself recently edited a poem for me, and I copied it and think it may be better, but this has been after a long relashionship and I trust your instincts because you KNOW my poetic vision etc, and how I write, the forms I take and all the rest. I have gotten much help on FORM, couplets, triolets, quantrains etc FROM THESE BOARDS. Gary helped me understand Asian poetry FROM THESE BOARDS. So I am not dunning it, but simply saying, a new person CAN BE DAMAGED AND NOT RETURN or return a worse poet for it. MJM has helped me enormously with line breaks, I think I can credit HER that, and other stuff, but I am much more aware of line breaks and I do think I've gotten better. I'm wandering. What I said to Steve, what I said in my lengthy explanation yesterday had to do with what Kooser said about reading 50 FIFTY poems for every poem we write. I like to read 10. Ten from experienced established poets. I subscribe to a couple of magazines. I purchase books for the library. I realized everyone doesn't have that opportunity, but any library can ILL books and I think anyone writing today needs to do this. Hass (yes I'm name dropping) but 10 years or 12 years ago, when I met him and told him I came so late to poetry how do I catch up, he said "read read read read read" "Don't write as much as READ the poets who know what they are doing and soon YOU will know what you are doing" I still don't but I do believe in Dylan's "know your song well before you start singing" I think we need to listen more than advise and when we do advise do it with caution. First do no harm. If I'm not POSTIVE about something I don't offer a suggestion. haha this reminds me of one of my poems that DID win an award through DMR it has a Nabokov quote and was clearly marked "nabokov" a person went on a Melic thread and said "that first line is just AWFUL, the worst piece of writing I've ever seen EVER" I said "um, I could never write as well" when I pointed out it had quotes and was a Nabokov quote, she accused me of plagarism. This is why some boards go private. This is why I mostly keep my mouth shut. Peace and thanks for your contribution to poetry. Laurie | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4675 Registered: 07-2002 |
Lazarus and Laurie, Thank you very much for your thoughts here. You and the others have already given me far more than I'd hoped for on the subject of critique. Wow. Lots to think about. I do have to say, I am guilty of violating our own board's ettiquite--I give far more in depth critiques on the Creative Visualizations board than people probably want. I do try to see through to the heart of the poet and the poem and only offer suggestions that may help make it their poem, only more so. (I hope that makes sense.) I don't have any special credentials to offer--only my love of the written and spoken word. Between Wild and the books of poetry in my collection, I probably read 50+ poems for every poem I write. And for *me*, the act of offering critique forces me to grow as a poet. I want to respect the poets who are working on developing their own voice and who chose to post on "CV" for light commentary by trying to keep my more in depth crits to Biofeedback. I have to confess--that's really very difficult for me. I love to edit/crit as much as I love to write. But I am trying. Thank you again, for your honesty and for your time. xo, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Laurie Byro
Advanced Member Username: lauriette Post Number: 1742 Registered: 11-2003 |
lisa, and regarding my experience with your critiques, I am fine with it. I have grown as a poet because of it and understand that others need to do that in order to grow themselves. What I meant however, is that a "new poet" getting massive critique spoken with such authority by anyone other than um Walt Whitman? haha can be harmed more than helped and so no worries with me and my experience with you. You put alot of time in with poetry. You've taken it to Dodge (and btw, the BOARD approved an overnight for me, so I am going to be there 2 or 3 days) and I thank you for it. And as to your recent edit, I told you this. I printed and kept it ALONG with my original and when I have a month behind me on them, will look but I think you've helped it and I thank you. Peace laurie | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4676 Registered: 07-2002 |
Thank you, my dear! I'll be at Dodge thurs nite-sunday. Whoo hooo! Do you need a roomie? Bad news--I do snore. Good news, I have a c-pap machine, so I don't snore anymore. LOL. xo ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| steve williams
Board Administrator Username: twobyfour Post Number: 545 Registered: 05-2005 |
Dear Lisa Thank you for starting this thread. One thing not mentioned yet, is the communication theory embedded in this process of on-line workshopping. Putting a poem out there, whether live or online is akin to asking for feedback from whomever reads it. Note that I say, the author is asking for response. That being said, I think each writer needs to step back and consider that all responses will be from readers first, writers second. Thus you are getting a piece of feedback from people, regardless of publishing credits. After all, we are writing to an audience that we cannot know who it contains at the point of posting. So, what i guess i'm trying to say, one cannot filter your responses to your pieces just because a certain person is not very experienced. A response is a response and must treated with respect and considered just as valid as any other. To do anything else, i believe is detrimental to ones' growth as a writer. thx again s | ||
| ~M~
Board Administrator Username: mjm Post Number: 7428 Registered: 11-1998 |
--are you a begining, developing, or experienced poet? All of the above, at various times and given each individual poem I am trying to write. I think the designation would also change given the group I am part of. I would probably be considered experienced in a group of beginning poets, a novice in a group of published ones. I like the word developing, though, as I think that applies to all of us. We develop (or evolve) throughout our entire lifetimes and writing careers. The only thing that will stop the learning process for me is death. --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? I respect the opinion of others who do what I do, no matter their level of experience. I post poetry in order to see what reader response might be. By reading the comments and suggestions left for me by other writers, I can assess if my poem is having the effect I desired or if it is way off the mark. In other words, do people understand what the poem is trying to say? If not, do I need to make corrections and edits? Perceptive readers always give me great clues about where the work is weak and needs improvement. There is an additional benefit to posting my poems. Sometimes readers see things in my work that I do not. This is very exciting and also very inspiring. And it is information I might not learn any other way. Readers who read my work in magazines very rarely write to tell me what they think. A workshop like WPF is the only online kind of place where back-and-forth feedback is available to me. --are you comfortable offering critique? After nearly eight years in an online critiquing environment, I feel very comfortable offering critique. Except for elements over which there is very little leeway (like the spelling of a word, etc.), I do realize that my critiques are only my opinions and I do remind those I critique of that fact. They are free to take the advice or ignore it. I also try to get a feel for the author and offer the kind of critique they might be open to. The more accepting they are of hearing opinions that differ from their own, the more in-depth critique I will give. Giving good critique is a delicate balancing act. I am no expert and have never presented myself as such. And as far as experts are concerned, I try to remember they are human beings just like me; they put their pants on one leg at a time just like I do and are fallible. Critiques are just opinions whether they come from the so-called experts or not. An inexperienced reader can give a great critique and a pro can offer less-than-valuable advice. Critiques are just recommendations -- they are not carved in stone. It is up to the author to decide whether critiques they are given work for their style of writing or not. --if not, why not? N/A --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Comments, critiques, and criticism are not necessarily negative or positive. A comment can be negative. A comment can be positive. The same applies to the critique and criticism. In my definition, a comment is lighter and more generalized. A comment can just tell the author what I the reader was inspired to think about when I read his/her poem. A comment usually offers little if any concrete advice, though a comment can inspire an author to change something if it become clears to him/her from something said in the comment that the reader is on the wrong track. A critique, to me, is more technical. It would involve notifying the author of errors in punctuation, spelling, line breaks, etc. All the technical details that go into making a good poem. I would have to say that criticism is probably the deepest level of all. If someone asked me for criticism, I would turn my attention to the meat of the work. Is the premise solid? Does the author make a point with the poem and is that point important? Does this poem add anything new to what is already written about the selected topic? These are heavier questions and require a good basic relationship between critiquer and author. There has to be an element of trust in both directions for valuable criticism to occur. It requires a tougher hide to hear honest criticism. I usually reserve this for people who are more experienced writers. --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? An open and trusting attitude on the part of the writers makes me feel comfortable offering them valuable criticism that could vastly improve the work. If they are not receptive or put up any walls at all to the process, detailed critique is less effective. Egos have to be put on the shelf. Both critiquer and writer have to be more concerned with the value of the end-product than with their own personal feelings for this type of heavy duty exchange to be successful. Thanks for the questions, Lisa. I hope something I've offered will be useful to you. Love, M | ||
| Gary Blankenship
Senior Member Username: garyb Post Number: 7816 Registered: 07-2001 |
Steve, a good point that no matter the level of experience in the end we are being read by readers. And when published we generally have no control over who those are. Smiles. Gary A River Transformed The Dawg House March 2006 FireWeed | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Intermediate Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 985 Registered: 08-2004 |
What a good discussion, Lisa. But still, I feel like standing up and saying, "Hello, my name is Karen." "Hi Karen"... Okay, now, y'all have me dickering with myself on my answers. No, no, I haven't changed my answers, but, I have decided to expand more personally. To say that I do not feel experienced enough is probably an understatement. There are times when I feel extremely old in my experience, especially, when I recognize myself in someone's writing. And, yes, quite often I use my favorite term, "we are all archetypal." Look it up. The only college experience I have is centered on psychology, child developement/teaching the deaf and English. Ironically, I am a retired accountant. My childhood, as most of you have figured, is extremely complex. My life, up till the last few years, was as well. I use this, plus my Great Aunt Mae, Grandmother, Grandfather, and every frigg'n book I can get my hands on, to understand my passion with poetry. As far as my critique/mentor/student experience, I have been here in the writing world since I discovered such a place-- it's more than tenure in some circles. I too, go with my gut on critique and I too can and will be accused of ego. It's a tough area for a reader, as I'm sure it is for the carpenter's hammer and visa-versa. But, my best gift is to understand a person by their words to me, and, in their own work and response. I have had my hand bitten, and learned to be leary of a cage, but knew that it was not my problem, after, of course, a lot of bites. I look at certain poets as I would my children, and just let them learn (after advice) on their own. I try not to be the character in "Mercy" by begging a much loved author to write what I want to read, that's the most difficult area (to me) in the reader/writer relationship. Being nonjudgmental, open, and honest as I have found with M, E and Lisa, keeps me here at Wild, makes me proud to be a part of Wild, and will keep me on my toes, as a reader/student/master/poet. Okay, fuzzy navel anyone? (((smile))) Karen | ||
| Karen L Monahan
Intermediate Member Username: klhmonahan Post Number: 986 Registered: 08-2004 |
Oh crap.. there are many others here I adore critique from as well as the above.. sorry for not including each of you (Gary, dale, Marty, jim, Chris, Kathy, Kathryn, Bren, Teresa, LAZ, Z, Splinter, V (when you're here), Laurie (when you do--LOL), Oh god!, there are so many, if I forgot you, I'm sorry, but you mean a lot to me and my writing. Another round? (((smile))) Karen Cheese & crackers! PS I'm editing twice for this (one disappeared, like my last fuzzy navel) Sis, sis, sis, I cannot forget you, you have been in my workshopping world since DJ days, (smile) whether you know it or not. I was here during the inception of Wild, under another name of course, and in another area before then (yet another name as well). I am forever grateful to you for continuing the workshopping that you do so well... Thank you, you dog! ((hugs)) (Message edited by klhmonahan on May 20, 2006) | ||
| Emusing
Moderator Username: emusing Post Number: 3335 Registered: 08-2003 |
Dear Lisa, Thank you for this survey. It’s a terrific idea. --are you a beginning, developing, or experienced poet? I am a developing poet. It would be interesting to define the word “experienced” in this context. I think each of us would have a different answer. An experienced poet would likely be someone whose work demonstrates a discernable level of craft (again a subjective matter). Their poems would have a degree of sophistication regardless of language or vocabulary. I have read poems penned by child prodigies – who is to say age is a factor? Experience entails attitude. How one offers and receives criticism. Experience can also mean exposure. How many styles of poetry read from the classics to the moderns? A learned eye can discern a poet’s influences. I would consider knowledge of forms an aid to experience. We could add to the list well published, active in the poetry community, accomplished, has written a fair amount of poems. A poet with skill can compose poems on a particular subject without the need of “divine inspiration.” My concept of an experienced poet is someone who is beyond the technical barriers of development. For example, Mary Oliver has said she no longer sits down and wonders if a line will sound right—she doesn’t have that kind of mechanical struggle. She simply sits down and writes her poem. She knows what she wants to say and she says it. --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? It is difficult to post a primary reason because there are several and each seem important. The greatest poems in history have a universal appeal. There is no better judge of a poem then response. Taken to extreme, If Rumi has been translated into every major language in the world it is because he has communicated something that many can relate to. In its microcosm here at Wild a number of favorable responses means the poet/poem is getting through. It is a gage, a way of knowing whether a poem has reached into another’s universe and had an effect. Posting in a public forum will expose the poems weaknesses and strengths. The poet usually knows when there is something that needs improvement—a public forum can validate that perception and help him to learn to trust his instincts as well as offer objective feedback. Additionally, it is a “safe space.” A place to share your experiences and imagined viewpoints with others. Can you imagine if the internet suddenly disappeared? Yes we survived centuries without it but now that’s it’s here we have all connected because of it. --are you comfortable offering critique? After moderating for a year I am more comfortable. It is a learning process. Having the good fortune to moderate forces me to dig deep to find ways to help. Not everyone will like or accept my criticism but I do try to be open to what the poet is saying and discover how I can help them to strengthen their voice. I do believe that I can see into the heart of a poem—a third eye. <(> I gain a great degree of pleasure in helping others improve their work. When I see a poet who is really in the trenches—reading, writing, posting, offering feedback to others, I want to offer them my best insights. It is my firm belief that offering critique is part of the exchange process. There is a “balance” an internal barometer that says—it is time for me to give back. Anyone can offer critique. It begins with finding something about the poem that works for you. It could be one line, a particular image, something that the person has succeeded in conveying. A comment from a more experienced poet to a beginner holds a tremendous amount of weight. I think it is a poet’s responsibility to help others. No excuses. --if not, why not? I am not comfortable offering critique of poems with specific meter and form. Since I am still learning and have yet to try a number of these myself, I do not feel qualified to offer substantive feedback. --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Comments are appreciated! A wow! can be as delicious as a line by line. Comments if constructive are important. Destructive comments are in my opinion, not useful to anyone. Feedback with an intent to improve is essential. Critique is an art to be learned. I believe anyone can learn how to give valuable feedback. Just read the critiques of those that offer it. Aspects of good critique involve: 1. Reading the poem (sometimes several times) 2. Understanding what you’ve read. 3. Clarifying what you don’t understand. 4. Noting what is working in the poem. 5. What weak spots if any and suggestions for improvement. 6. Appreciating what the poet wants to convey and assessing whether that message was delivered. 7. Consideration of the level of ability one has in front of them. Too steep a gradient can crush a new poet. Being “honest” with a new poet who has barely written may not be the helpful course. Find what works in the poem and help them build from there. It takes a sensitivity and a willingness to fail. That is, advice is advice to be taken or discarded and sometimes one’s advice is not always the best way to go. I learn from everyone here. I read most everyone’s post after reading the poem. I love reading M’s and Lisa’s comments but then again I am biased LOL. Criticism connotes an in-depth review which focuses on concept and technique. A neurosurgeon’s operating room. --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? More knowledge of form and further reading. Read read read. E | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4681 Registered: 07-2002 |
Steve, M, Gary, Karen, and Emusing, This is wonderful commentary--thank you all so very much for digging deep and taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm saving copies of all the posts so I can absorb them and (with any luck) come up with a cogent piece on the place of critique. Much love, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog | ||
| Dale McLain
Senior Member Username: sparklingseas Post Number: 2519 Registered: 11-2004 |
Lisa~ Thank you for this very interesting discussion. I have enjoyed reading the responses. I always feel like a babbling toddler playing at the feet of some very sophisticated grown-ups at a fancy party, but I like it well enough to risk getting stepped on. are you a beginning, developing, or experienced poet? Well, I am definitely a beginning poet. I have written since I could, but never for public consumption. Only fairly recently have I attempted to edit and really work at writing. So, I am a beginner who has written for 40+ years. --what is the primary reason you post poetry for review? I certainly want to learn and improve my writing. The lure of free, mostly very good critique is irresistible. It is a leap of faith to post those first poems, but I was treated so gently and offered such wonderful advice I was hooked very quickly. I post to learn and to gain confidence as a poet. See, it works... I called myself a poet, though others may not.  --are you comfortable offering critique? Absolutely not. --if not, why not? I feel woefully unqualified to critique. I read a lot of poetry and always have, but I do not have the education, experience or publication credentials to offer detailed critique. --what do you see as the difference between comments, critique and criticism? Comments are what I usually offer. I think they are mostly the reader's general impressions of a poem. The dictionary (yes, I looked) tells me that criticism and critique (in regards to literature) are the same thing, but I tend to think that critique is more of a line-by-line assessment. I think it is very concerned with the mechanics of the piece. Criticism feels more general to me... a look at the overall style and execution of the piece. See why I don't like to crit now??  --what would make you more comfortable giving detailed critique? going back to college I think forums like WPF can be wonderful tools for writers. There is a real advantage to posting and reading the boards regularly. You learn who to trust with your work, who steers you in a positive direction. Reading the work of others here is a delight. The talent is often astounding. To have writers of this caliber comment on my offerings is priceless. I often feel bad that I am unable to reciprocate at the same level. Hopefully, as I learn, my comments will become more substantial. Thank you again for this discussion, Lisa. take care~dale (Message edited by sparklingseas on May 22, 2006) | ||
| LJ Cohen
Moderator Username: ljc Post Number: 4716 Registered: 07-2002 |
Dale, Thank you for your thoughts--I appreciate the time you took to answer my completely unscientific survey.  best, ljc Once in a Blue Muse Blog |
